User talk:Maelgwn

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The Maelgwnbot has just created work by allowing vandals to hit Portal:Contents/Categorical index again. Why? Per your note on this page, I will look for the answer here. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 10:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All it did was remove the template, this did not actually protect the page, it just tells an editor that it is protected from editing. If you want it to be protected you need to request page protection. -- maelgwn - talk 10:32, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I just reverted two edits of your bot. I did this because they removed protection templates in contexts where protection templates were necessary. One was on a documentation page, where a protection template is transcluded onto the main template page using <includeonly> tags and examples were given of protection tags, and the other was a template page which actually needed its protection tag removed but where part of the template ended up being removed.
In the former case, the bot needs to ignore the page Template:Pp-meta/doc with respect to the task of removing unneeded protection templates, as the examples there are valid uses of protection templates and are specially made to not apply protection categories or anything. Ignoring or merely flagging cases of misplaced protection templates where "categories=no" is set might help. In the latter case, the bot should ignore or merely flag things in includeonly tags, most especially on template pages. I hope that this leads to an improvement in your bot, which otherwise does wonderful work. Thanks, {{Nihiltres|talk|log}} 14:03, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I too have noticed the work of this bot since it has edited template pages I watch.

A correct and fairly common case is that we place the {{pp-template}} on the unprotected /doc page instead of on the template page itself. This is done for templates like {{!}} that often are transcluded many times on the same page, thus we need to make them very short. (Yes, sometimes the size of the data between the noinclude tags in a template does matter.) So either your bot should not remove {{pp-template}} from /doc pages or it should first check if the template page itself is protected or not.

--David Göthberg (talk) 18:29, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another example where the bot is not doing the right thing. Subpages of a template, used for drafting or testing revisions should not have the protection template removed. For instance this edit [1] to Template:WPMED/new. The page contains a copy of WPMED that is/has been used for testing revisions to the template before requesting that they be incorporated into the protected template. As such, it is convenient for it to have a complete copy of the template. However the page is not (and should not be) protected (since that would defeat it's purpose). Perhaps the bot should ignore protection templates on sub-pages of a protected template. (That would handle this case appropriately, and likewise handle the /doc page problems mentioned above.) Zodon (talk) 20:26, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maelgwn: I have blocked your bot since it damaged Template:Pp-meta/doc again, in-spite that we had reported it here first time. And you have not yet responded to our messages here. Thus I assume you have not fixed your bot.

And I agree with Zodon, one good solution is that the bot should not touch the subpages if a template is protected, even if the subpage itself is not protected.

--David Göthberg (talk) 04:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay thanks for letting me know guys. In general there should not be a problem with documentation pages because the protection template should be in <noinclude> tags. This means it is not in the Category:Protected so is not checked by the bot. Documentation pages that actually where protected can be a problem though. Because Template:Pp-meta/doc translcudes the protection templates in ways it really shouldn't i've added it the exception list. As for template sandboxes and drafts, they are not actually protected and so shouldn't be templated as such. Can it be unblocked please? -- maelgwn - talk 05:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I still think that the bot should not touch subpages to protected templates since the bot isn't smart enough.

I noticed your bot since it removed the protection template from Template:Date style/doc. That protection template was there since Template:Date style is protected. A human editor could have put the protection template within includeonly tags, or moved it to the template page. But your bot just deleted it.

Also, as Zodon points out your bot deletes the protection templates from /sandbox pages. I as a human editor normally instead put those protection templates within comment tags <!-- --> so we don't forget the protection template when we cut and paste the sandbox code back to the protected main template.

I am not sure you can make your bot intelligent enough to figure out if the protection template on a subpage should be within includeonly tags or be put within comment tags. A simple assumption is: If on a /doc page, use includeonly. If on any other subpage such as a /sandbox page use comment tags. Both of course provided that the main template is protected. But I am not sure these assumptions will hold for all cases, so can be safer to simply not touch subpages of protected templates.

What solution do you intend to use?

--David Göthberg (talk) 06:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why shouldn't sandboxes/drafts for protected pages use the protection template? Their purpose is to test the real thing and make it easy for an administrator to incorporate changes, so they should be as close to the real thing as possible.

• Not having the protection template on the test page means that you are not testing the real thing. Don't know how likely that an error would be caused by/related to the protection template itself, but the further the test version is from the real one, the more likely you are to get unexpected/undetected errors. Anything that can go wrong will.
• It also means that whoever applies the fixes to the real template has to notice that the template has been removed from the test version, and reinsert it. (Introduces another opportunity for error. I don't know how much of an extra chore this is for the administrators, but why make things harder for them.)

If it can't be made to ignore subpages of protected pages, how about providing some sort of a directive (e.g. on the pages talk page) to tell the bot not to edit certain pages. Zodon (talk) 06:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay - i have stopped this job for the moment, can it please be unblocked so it can continue it's other jobs.

• Protection tags dont belong on sandbox pages because it puts the page in the wrong category (making maintenance more difficult) and gives the impression that the page is protected, when the idea of the page is that it is not.
• The bot is {{nobots}} complaint if you want to exclude certain pages.

I will think about the problems and try and come up with a solution later, hopefully tonight. -- maelgwn - talk 08:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, your one step ahead of me. :)) I was just going to suggest that. (That you turn of the protection tag deletion for the moment to take some time to consider our suggestions.) So your bot can continue with its other tasks meanwhile. Thus I have unblocked your bot. Sorry that it took some hours for me to respond, but I was in bed sleeping. (Even had some good dreams about Wikipedia!:))

And I agree, protection tags shouldn't falsely show on subpages, although that just causes a little confusion. But just removing them also causes confusion, perhaps even more confusion. Instead they should be put inside comment tags or includeonly tags when appropriate, although I realise it might be hard to make it so the bot knows when to do that and to do it neatly.

So lets throw around some ideas:

I think there is a third way to handle this: I checked on how many template pages (both sub and main template pages) the {{pp-meta}} is transcluded on: Only about 2300 pages. Considering that just some of them are subpages and hopefully only some of them are problem cases, then if your bot instead lists the problem cases we should be able to look them over by hand. (Such a list page or category should be categorised into Category:Wikipedia maintenance.)

And I know a way to get others to manually fix the cases for us! I can add an option to the protection tags so your bot can set something like {{pp-template|wrongpage=yes}} and {{pp-semi-template|wrongpage=yes}}, then the protection tag can add a category with a very long descriptive name which gets visible on the faulty page. Something like Category:Wikipedia protection template might be on the wrong page. We have used that before for detecting and reporting faulty usage of other templates. The nice thing is that people notice that long category name on their page and get curios and click it. On the category page we then have a description what is going on and what fixes usually needs to be applied. Then they fix their page them self and some even help out and fix other pages that are listed in that category. So we could just sit back and watch! See for instance Category:Wikipedia shortcut box first parameter needs fixing and Category:Wikipedia category-redirect box parameter needs fixing. (Error reporting for the category-redirect box was just turned on yesterday, but the number of reported pages have already decreased 10% in that one day! And we are going to run a bot that will fix most of those cases.)

Hey, this might work so good that we might want to use it for all the protection templates when they are placed on subpages. Subpages for the page header is often used on "Wikipedia:" pages so I guess they might have the same problem?

--David Göthberg (talk) 16:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hey thanks, that is a good suggestion. I will still have to figure out how to detect subpages when looking through the category. I have tried to create a log of pages that need looking at before but have had some problems with it. When I get the time I will try and fix it up a bit nicer. Wouldn't we need to modifiy all the templates to accept the extra parameter, to put them in the template? I guess a lot would be covered by {{pp-meta}}. The Sock of Maelgwn (talk) 00:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding backlog pages: Yeah, most backlog pages don't get taken care of. But my experience is that when we mark the pages with a long category name like that they get attention. And that gets the attention of the very people who did the mistakes and are editing the listed pages. There's also another nice thing with creating a category like that: Then another bot with different functionality might be able to work through that list. That is, one bot (like yours) might be good at finding the problematic pages, while some other bot might be better at actually fixing the problem.

And right, I should add the "wrongpage=yes" function to {{pp-meta}}, making that one the only one that actually holds the "#ifeq:" statement and the category name. Then in all the other protection templates I only need to add one line of code: "| wrongpage = {{{wrongpage|}}}".

Regarding detecting subpages: I don't know anything about bot coding. But I do know how to detect if a template is on a subpage from within the template code. We can perhaps use that? I can for instance make it so that {{pp-meta}} detects when it is on a subpage and then it adds those pages to say Category:Wikipedia protected subpages. (That should probably be a hidden category just like all the other protection categories.) Then we and your bot can see what protection templates are on subpages! If I keep it simple and only add that handling in {{pp-meta}} then we will get both protected and semi-protected subpages in that category, but I hope that should be okay? Do we need to keep different namespaces apart, that is report template subpages in a separate category? I can make it so it sorts the page names in the category based on the full page name, that means "Template:Something/subpage" pages will sort under "T" and other namespaces will sort under their character, thus we might not need separate categories even if we want to keep the namespaces apart.

I think we can crack this problem. :)

--David Göthberg (talk) 04:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, the bot seems to have mucked up this page, if you want to take a look, although I've now fixed it.--Rodhullandemu 20:38, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rodhullandemu: I am guessing that happened due to that one of the Wikipedia servers got crazy that day. (The server was taken off-line after some hours.) Both bot and human edits did get that kind of problems that day. So it is likely it isn't the bot's fault.

Maelgwn: You really should have given some answer to this yourself. Running a bot without responding to bug reports is bad. Answering something like "I don't know what happened yet, but I will investigate it" is much better than no answer.

--David Göthberg (talk) 17:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah thanks, this one had me completed stumped, im glad to hear it's not my fault! The Sock of Maelgwn (talk) 00:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Bot seems to have stopped updating the noticeboard.--Grahame (talk) 11:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hey thanks, not quite sure what happened there but seems to be going again now. -- maelgwn - talk 13:28, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

thanks. Philly jawn (talk) 17:19, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a bug, or are people not supposed to edit that section? Hesperian 06:06, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Currently a farce SatuSuro 08:35, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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On User talk:Joepercussion1, your bot is repeatedly substituting a {{checkuserblock}} template inside an {{unblock-auto reviewed}} template. This is causing the unblock request templates to get all messed up (see here as compared to here). I'd like your bot to stop substituting this occurrence of the template. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 16:30, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok i added a deny Maelgwnbot to the page, see how that goes ... -- maelgwn - talk 22:30, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your bot ran right on time. Thank you for doing this. Can I ask one more thing? Can the stats be posted to User:AK Auto/stats instead of User talk:AK Auto/stats? Again, thank you! --Andrew Kelly (talk) 17:12, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, should be doing that now! -- maelgwn - talk 23:24, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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what did you do to it AcesUpMaSleeve (talk) 03:00, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Hey, I was wondering if you're bot could do this task. I'm asking everyone in the Template substitution bots category, so if someone already accepted the task (besides me), just ignore this. Thanks. AHRtbA== ^Talk 13:50, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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I've followed up after the bot request. Unfortunately, this is a general issue with the Rambot articles. The geography text/line should be eliminated outright. If you need a list of the affected articles just ask. — Dispenser 17:51, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok thanks, i might look into it later. -- maelgwn - talk 23:22, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Greetings Maelgwn-

My name is Randall Livingstone, and I am a graduate student at the University of Oregon, currently collecting data for my dissertation on Wikipedia editors who create and use bots and assisted editing tools, as well as editors involved in the initial and/or ongoing creation of bot policies on Wikipedia. As a member of the bot community and former member of BAG, I would very much like to interview you for the project at a time and in a method that is most convenient for you (Gchat, another IM client, Skype, email, telephone, etc.). I am completely flexible and can work with your schedule. The interview will take approximately 30-45 minutes.

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