User talk:81.152.238.125

Hello 81.152.238.125! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! XLinkBot (talk) 15:21, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply] Getting Started Wikipedia Tutorial • The five pillars of Wikipedia How to: edit a page • upload an image Getting Help Frequently Asked Questions Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Policies and Guidelines Neutral point of view • Reliable sources Verifiability • Citing sources • No original research What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons Manual of Style • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Fair use • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The Community Build consensus • Resolving disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community Portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Things to do Be bold in editing • Help develop an article Pages needing attention • Peer review Join a WikiProject • Translating articles Cleaning up: General • Spam • Vandalism Miscellaneous Useful templates • Categories • Stubs User pages • Talk pages Tools • User scripts

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, your addition of one or more external links to the page Just a Gigolo (1978 film) has been reverted.
Your edit here to Just a Gigolo (1978 film) was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to remove links in references which are discouraged per our reliable sources guideline. The reference(s) you added or changed (https://www.dazeddigital.com/film-tv/article/53284/1/long-forgotten-david-bowie-film-just-a-gigolo-david-hemmings-first-uk-release) is/are on my list of links to remove and probably shouldn't be included in Wikipedia.
If you were trying to insert an external link that does comply with our policies and guidelines, then please accept my creator's apologies and feel free to undo the bot's revert. However, if the link does not comply with our policies and guidelines, but your edit included other, constructive, changes to the article, feel free to make those changes again without re-adding the link. Please read Wikipedia's external links guideline for more information, and consult my list of frequently-reverted sites. For more information about me, see my FAQ page. Thanks! --XLinkBot (talk) 15:21, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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Your recent editing history at She's a Woman shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. freshacconci (✉) 19:33, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you violate Wikipedia's no original research policy by inserting unpublished information or your personal analysis into an article, as you did at Teen pop. Binksternet (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. When you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, such as at User talk:Binksternet, (but never when editing articles), please be sure to sign your posts. There are two ways to do this. Either:

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Thank you. General Ization ^Talk 14:15, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Michael why are you dismissing alt-pop? Its a term that has been used time and time again over the last few years, mainly in regards to young teen pop stars. A term shouldn't just be used over and over again on this site and then take you on a wild goose chase...not should it be redirected from google into the wrong information. Instead of creating articles for random people who you may love (for example Jean Rodríguez^[1], Brown Meggs^[2][3] and Lady Tambourine^[4] all which don't mean that much over here as they are not very TOTP-worthy) it might be better if you sorted out the alt-pop problem by starting an article about it or expanding an indie article to includes these alt-pop artists...seeing as its modern, its of the now and its a phrase that loads of writers are using when categorising modern chart acts as (and as a lot of these acts seem to come from America you should have no problem with it).

btw Suggs still missing from the "I'm Only Sleeping" article...even though he gets an infobox for Cecilia (Simon & Garfunkel song),,,that's something else for you to expand on. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.238.125 (talk • contribs)

I'm not dismissing alt-pop, I'm dismissing your opaque arguments. Once you discover how to convey your thoughts succinctly, we can talk. Until then... Binksternet (talk) 15:11, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but haven't I made myself clearer the last time I posted...that

A) the term 'alt-pop' exists in the real pop world...with online sites, blogs, newspapers, magazines all using the term frequently

B) alt-pop doesn't seem to exist in 'wikipedialand' apart from when the term is used again and again in genre descriptions that take you nowhere in particular when you click on the link (which is a problem if you are trying to figure out what alt-pop actually is - apart from a new breed of young female pop stars - and especially if google/other wiki articles keep taking you to indie pop which seems to be a completely different thing)

so what actually is alt-pop? Is it indie pop?, indie rock?, alternative rock?, teen pop? art-pop? pop music? there seems to be no answers on here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.238.125 (talk • contribs)

Here's how I would have stated your case:

"Alternative pop" currently redirects to alternative rock, but I think it could be its own article. What do you think?

— Suddenly Succinct in Salford

It's an interesting proposal but because of the shifting terms found in the literature, I'm sure the effort would be difficult for the editors and perhaps even confusing for the readers. The proposed article might easily suffer from WP:SYNTH as a variety of sources are combined to create a new conclusion not found in any of them. There will be many sources saying "alt-pop" but not explaining the meaning of the term. The first step is to find a reliable music critic or musicologist who defines the term. Without that there's no hope. Binksternet (talk) 15:42, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Indie Pop[edit]

Now even though I do not know what you mean by "revert unhelpful noise, no signal"...its still unhelpful to end the discussion at that point, because that just leaves all the articles in some kind of limbo state with the indie pop article ending in 1986 (35 years ago) apart from one sentance "In later years, the definition of indie pop has bifurcated to also mean bands from unrelated DIY scenes/movements with pop leanings"

Now Michael, as it seems your raison d'être is to improve the articles rather than just being some ultra pedantic type online who can't decide whether a Top 20 hit is unknown or not, so seeing as some improvements need to be made would the following be helpful put somewhere in one of the indie or pop articles...

"In the 21st Century, lots of new acts have been grouped under the 'alt pop' label^[1] with the genre being used for a range of artists in the charts^[2][3] seen to have a broad appeal but seen to be less manufactured and more eclectic or original^[4][5].^[6] Artists^[7] include Tate McRae,^{[8][9][10][11]} Halsey^{[12][13] [14][15]} Chloe Moriondo,^{[16][17][18][19]} Beren Olivia, ^{[20] [21][22][23][24][25]} Jack River,^{[26][27][28][29][30]} and Billie Eilish".^[31][32]

Then if that is alright, you can decide which sites are blogs, newspapers or magazines and then post it under the genre it fits into the most. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.238.12 (talk • contribs)

This post of yours was impenetrable word salad, incomprehensible, having no point, which is why I removed it.

Apparently, you've selected me as the backboard off of which to bounce ideas. Looking at your composition above, I would vote for deletion. The Merriam Webster source is the only one that tries to define the topic, but as a dictionary it is not a WP:SECONDARY source. Several in-depth secondary sources are required to create a new article, per WP:GNG. The rest of your composition is a violation of WP:SYNTH, combining various sources to synthesize a new conclusion. Binksternet (talk) 14:30, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

but I did not select you, you selected your self. Didn't you think when you you sent the warning below to that 'Scritti and Shabba person', that it wouldn't get you involved especially when it says on your home page that you are some kind of music guru:

"I am Michael "Bink" Knowles, known as Binksternet on Wikipedia, a California-based live audio engineer and Wikipedia editor. I have edited Wikipedia since July 2007, starting 231 new articles, and I have an edit count of more than 350,000 ...I make most of my edits in music and... rather be expanding articles.

You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you violate Wikipedia's no original research policy by inserting unpublished information or your personal analysis into an article, as you did at Teen pop. Binksternet (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

now all you needed to do was amend the information about alt-pop that Aoksjd from 24 May 2021‎ brought back to the indie pop page and which I stuck in the teen pop section (without realising it included original research) - amending it in a way similar to the following:

A) MY POST ABOUT GARY MOORE'S KIDS ON 13:08, 1 July 2021:

Moore was married to a woman named Kerry from 1985 to 1993.^[1][2][3] They had two sons, Jack (who would go on to be in the band Smith, Lyle & Moore)^[4][5][6] and Gus, before divorcing. Moore later had a daughter, neo-soul singer Lily,^[7][8][9] during a relationship with a woman named Jo Rendle.^[2]

— QUOTE

B) SilverBullitt revision as of 20:34, 1 July 2021 with the comment "→‎Personal life: Better sources"

Moore was married to his first wife Kerry from 1985 to 1993.^[1][2][3] They had two sons, Jack (who would also go on to become a musician^[10]) and Gus, before divorcing.^[2] Moore later had a daughter, Lily (who also embarked on a career in music^[11]), during a relationship with Jo Rendle.^[2]

— QUOTE

...but no rather than just amending the information to something as simple as "Tate, Billie and Halsey were all popular alt-pop stars in the 21st century" you got yourself involved in this discussion, you highlighted yourself as someone who likes expanding articles and who cares so mush about music that they will send out strongly worded warnings to people.

Then again if you have been on this site for 14 years it might be easy for you just hit send with whatever acronym you think is suitable in that instance but you have to remember that not everybody has read through all the Wikipedia key policies and guidelines...and some people might not have the time because they just want to find the correct information and not be a professional wiki editor (though I might have a read of Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers/Wikipedia:Assume good faith later as there might be some points I can use at a later date)

Psychedelic pop - compare and contrast[edit]

Now you say alt-pop is not worthy when psych pop is, and not just a sub-genre? Psychedelic pop is worthy of an article because it exists and because most of the references come from AllMusic (5 references out of 12), with another one from Popmatters (other seem to be from reviews and from books where the words pop and psych are used in the same sentence e.g. "Pet Sounds inspired mainstream pop acts to take part in the psychedelic culture"^[12][13]

therefore AllMusic and Popmatters must be reliable sources do not you think (though some people have alleged that AllMusic just made up loads of genres that didn't exist but we will over look that for now), therefore the following must be useable...

A Canadian singer and dancer, Tate McRae makes emotive, intimate alternative pop. Following her viral emergence in 2017, she released her debut EP, 2020's All the Things I Never Said, featuring the Billie Eilish and Finneas O'Connell co-write "Tear Myself Apart." She had her first Billboard Top 20 hit with "You Broke Me First" from 2021's Too Young to Be Sad EP.

Born Tate Rosner McRae in 2003, the Calgary native initially started out as a dancer at age six and studied at the Alberta Ballet. She entered her first dance competition in 2011 and later took the silver medal at the final round of the Youth America Grand Prix in New York City in 2015. Out of the competition, she earned a scholarship for a two-week intensive course at the Berlin State Ballet School. The following year, McRae competed on FOX's So You Think You Can Dance: The Next Generation, finishing in third place. Along with dance, she developed an interest in singing and acting, appearing as the voice of the rag doll Spot Splatter Splash in Nickelodeon's Lalaloopsy animated series. In 2017, she launched her own YouTube channel by posting a song she had written in one day. The video went viral and helped her build buzz. More songs followed, and she eventually signed with RCA.

In 2020, McRae released her debut EP, All the Things I Never Said. Included in the set was the song "Tear Myself Apart," co-written by Billie Eilish and Finneas O'Connell. A year later, her second EP, Too Young to Be Sad, included "You Broke Me First," which reached number 17 on the U.S. Hot 100 and number eight in Canada.

— QUOTE - Tate McRae Artist Biography by Matt Collar

^[14]

"California-bred singer/songwriter Billie Eilish crafts genre-blurring outcast anthems that bridge the gap between ethereal indie electronic and dark alternative pop. With angsty, introspective lyrics that don't shy away from issues of mental health, she endeared herself to a devoted audience during her breakthrough years in the late 2010s when she was still just a teenager. On the heels of a sold-out headlining tour, she issued her chart-topping, Grammy-winning debut album, 2019's When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? In 2021, she returned with her sophomore set, Happier Than Ever.

13 Reasons Why [Original TV Soundtrack]Born and raised in Los Angeles, Eilish grew up in a household of actors and musicians and was home-schooled along with her brother Finneas O'Connell (the Slightlys). At the age of eight, she joined the Los Angeles Children's Choir, developing the soulful vocals that would later appear on her early singles. After the release of the pop-leaning "Six Feet Under" and "Fingers Crossed," Eilish made her breakthrough with "Ocean Eyes," produced and co-written with her brother Finneas and released by Interscope. It surpassed 14 million online streams and spawned a number of remixes with Astronomyy, Blackbear, and Goldhouse. Eilish followed up in February 2017 with "Bellyache," then landed another track, "Bored," on the Netflix series 13 Reasons Why. An EP, don't smile at me, featuring the singles "Copycat" and "watch," followed later that summer.

In 2018, Eilish contributed a track to the second season of 13 Reasons Why, collaborating with Khalid on the hit single "Lovely," which charted globally. Later that year, she issued a pair of singles, "You Should See Me in a Crown" and "When the Party's Over," which both landed on her full-length debut, When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? Issued in March 2019, the breakthrough effort showcased her hybrid blend of pop, electronic, and hip-hop textures with a rock edge. Debuting at number one on the Billboard 200, the LP quickly became a worldwide smash and one of the most critically lauded efforts of 2019. Meanwhile, the pulsing single "Bad Guy" topped the Hot 100 and even got the remix treatment with Eilish's childhood idol, Justin Bieber.

— QUOTE - Billie Eilish Biography by Neil Z. Yeung

"^[15]

Alternative Pop/Rock is essentially a catch-all term for post-punk bands from the mid-'80s to the mid-'90s. Though there is a variety of musical styles within Alternative Rock, they are all tied together since they existed outside of the mainstream. In some ways, there are two waves of alternative bands, with Nirvana's success in 1991 acting as a dividing point. In the '80s, most alternative bands were on independent labels; if they were on majors, they didn't receive as much support as most of the label's mainstream acts. During the '80s, alternative included everything from jangle pop, post-hardcore punk, funk metal, punk pop, and experimental rock. After Nirvana's popularity in the '90s, alternative included all of these subgenres, but many of the edges were sanded off because the music was now being marketed as part of the mainstream. Hard rock and punk-derived music were more commercially successful than the left-of-center pop that dominated late-'80s alternative pop/rock, so alternative lost some of its quirkier tendencies in the '90s. Most experimental bands were relegated to indie rock

— QUOTE - AllMusic's Overview of Alternative Pop/Rock

"^[16]

Obviously the last quote seems a bit out of date, but if they are going to use the term alt-pop in regards to Tate McRae and Billie Eilish, surely that means that they are alt-pop and Popmatters are at it as well...

A) POPMATTER'S ALTERNATIVE POP (news section) <refhttps://www.popmatters.com/tag/alternative-pop></ref>

B) RJ THOMPSON SOARS ON THE ALT-POP OF “SO RIGHT” (PREMIERE)^[17]

C) IRISH ALT-POP ARTIST REBEKAH FITCH FACES LOSS ON “DUST” (PREMIERE)^[18]

D) ALT-POP’S STEFF AND THE ARTICLES RELEASE THEIR “INHIBITION” (PREMIERE)^[19]

E) ALT-POP’S MERCI, MERCY WARNS WE MAY “FALL APART”^[20]

F) LUMINOUS KID TAPS PHOEBE BRIDGERS FOR POETRY ON “MOUNTAIN CRYSTALS” Swedish alt-pop artist Luminous Kid shares his dreamy and psychedelic imaginings via his latest single, “Mountain Crystals”.^[21]

so obviously if these trusted sites are using the term, surely it needs a sentence in one of the articles?

81.152.238.125 (talk) 14:28, 2 July 2021 (UTC)salford 2nd July 3.30pm[reply]

Look, as much as I want to back you up against Binksternet, I got to be honest, I have never heard of the term "alt-pop" used to describe artists like Billie Eilish before I saw that now deleted section on the indie pop page. The fact is, unlike other "alternative [INSERT GENRE]" terms, alternative pop has never caught on in the music lexicon as a name for an actual pop subgenre. Personally, I view "alternative pop" as an uncommon synonym for music that is usually labeled as "adult alternative", so I'm basically useless in helping you. Sorry. 72.208.178.248 (talk) 16:40, 4 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Alongside Landfill indie, another genre term which has been used by critics in a negative manner^[22] is dadrock,^[23] usually in regards to Britpop acts such as Ocean Colour Scene^{[24][25][26][27]} whose music is seen to be rooted firmly in past musical trends such as 60s Mod and old-school R&B. In America, Rob Mitchum^[28][29] in Esquire magazine said that he first used the term in a 2007 Pitchfork review for Wilco's sixth album, Sky Blue Sky^[30] and that he had heard the term from Pitchfork's Chris Ott, who had seen the term used in the British press of the 1990s when they were describing bands like Oasis^[31][32] and Kula Shaker. In 2014, Tom Hawking of Flavorwire^[33] described dadrock as either being "music played by dads" or "music made by old white dudes that somehow always ends up on the car stereo and/or being played on the hi-fi at various school friends’ houses", while in 2018 the term was picked up by the compilers of Now That's What I Call Music!^{[34][35][36][37]} who released an album with tracks by Nickelback, Stereophonics, Lenny Kravitz, Razorlight and The Kooks.81.152.238.125 (talk) 13:13, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Next time, if you need to properly editing a cite. As for example here:

<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.billboard.com/charts/billboard-200/2021-07-10|title=Billboard 200 Chart: Week of July 10, 2021|work=[[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]|access-date=July 7, 2021}}</ref>

--183.171.114.205 (talk) 13:35, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]