Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian rules football

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Good article reassessment for Australian rules football[edit]

Australian rules football has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Onegreatjoke (talk) 02:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Move request on Talk:Fremantle Football Club[edit]

Visit if interested. – Teratix ₵ 09:15, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Brian Wilson[edit]

Noticed some inconsistency in the article naming convention at Brian Wilson (disambiguation), I'm not sure how you guys do the naming but one is labelled footballer and the other is labelled Australian rules footballer. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 19:58, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If someone wants to be WP:BOLD this article probably should be at Brian Wilson (footballer, born 1961) per WP:TITLECON. As a Brownlow medallist, Wilson's article was very stubby, so I've taken this as a chance for a modest expansion, but if others have some further expansion ideas, that would be great. Storm machine (talk) 01:33, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reserve seasons[edit]

Hey, I've added the full fixture for the 2024 VFL season. If someone has some time to help and add it to the 2024 VFL Women's season that would be great, as I don't have that much free time currently. Also another couple of people to keep an eye on these and update match results and ladder would be great :) --SuperJew (talk) 05:35, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do the VFL Women's seasons really even meet GNG? Other than sometimes having a news article about the grand final result, there's scarcely an independent reference in any of them. (Same goes for Coates Talent League and some of the other minor grade season articles we have floating around). I'd suggest working on baseline referencing to test whether this would even survive an AfF before putting any time into transcribing scores off AustralianFootball.com. Aspirex (talk) 10:38, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah good question. I was just looking and see for 2023 VFL Women's season the results weren't added, so won't waste my time for this season. --SuperJew (talk) 11:14, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Aspirex there's enough paywalled articles from News Corp, and other primary and secondary sources to withstand a GNG related query for the top level women's football season articles (VFLW/SANFLW/WAFLW). I can't say I care enough about the U18s competition to bother finding stuff about that, but I know there's a dedicated following because of the draft/recruiting process.
@SuperJew I think it's fine not to have the round by round results, but to have it as an external link to either the AustralianFootball.com page or the official fixture list. My preference would be to have this consistent across all the men's and women's subelite competitions, but I'm ambivalent when other editors are happy to keep the VFL/SANFL/WAFL results updated. With the VFLW for 2024, I've been trying to work out how to tackle the presence of the two NSW AFLW teams in this competition and whether to have them in the ladder with the note that neither team can make finals etc, or keep the ladder as it currently is. Storm machine (talk) 01:27, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just follow the last couple of NAB League seasons lead. List the WLDs at the bottom of the ladder table without giving them a finishing position. Aspirex (talk) 01:57, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would say go with how the AFL site lists them on their ladder. On a side note it's interesting that they chose this format, when Gold Coast won the 2023 VFL season. --SuperJew (talk) 11:09, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
well now I'm totally confused. They have Sydney & GWS in 3rd-4th place, even though they have only 4 points and places 5-8 have more points than them. Not sure what they're ranking by... --SuperJew (talk) 20:16, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The AFL website will likely have hardcoded match ratio as the deciding factor and should be ignored. Either put Syd/GWS at the bottom of the ladder without positions or put their results in a separate table, but they should absolutely not be ranked in the ladder of a premiership they aren't eligible for. Aspirex (talk) 20:21, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And your reliable source for this is? --SuperJew (talk) 22:21, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a style and understandability choice, not a sourcing choice. There is no argument in the world that would convince me that the way the academy teams are presented in the ladder in this old revision is anything but nonsense. Aspirex (talk) 22:49, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That ladder doesn't cite a source. But looking on quick Google search, AFL Victoria present the info as such. I personally think the version you showed is correct if they were playing for points (just needs the addition of a note explaining the difference in background colour). The way it is presented now with there being a skip between places 11 and 14 (and also no note), it looks like there is missing information. --SuperJew (talk) 23:00, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's just a mistake, it should be 12 and 13, which I've now fixed. Aspirex (talk) 23:06, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like you're doing whatever you think is correct, not relying on reliable sources. Regardless I'm not gonna start getting into a war over a youth league ladder from 5 years ago. --SuperJew (talk) 06:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Season articles[edit]

Hey guys – hope everyone's doing well. Following on from the GAN discussion for 2023 AFL Women's season (now got the last couple of AFLW seasons to GA status – keen to get as many season articles as possible to a similar quality), I had a few points that I wanted to raise with everyone in the hopes of gaining a wider consensus. I also have another larger point that I wanted to discuss down the line for these articles, but I wanted to get everyone's thoughts on these first.

  • Lead section – wording and potential inclusion of reigning premier and minor premier
  • Club leadership and milestone tables – are they needed?
  • Indigenous Round rebrandings
  • Leading goalkicker table – including all/a maximum number of round leaders
  • Player movement periods – before or after the season?

For the lead section, in a similar vein to Grand Slam tennis articles, I definitely feel like covering the reigning premier and minor premier in the same paragraph as the premier would be beneficial/interesting. For example, for 2023 AFLW: Melbourne was the reigning premier, but was eliminated by Geelong in the semi-finals. Adelaide won the minor premiership by finishing atop the ladder at the end of the home-and-away season with a 9–1 win/loss record, but was eliminated by North Melbourne in the preliminary finals. Brisbane won its second AFL Women's premiership, defeating..., and so on, with any double-ups (or all three, if applicable) morphing into one sentence. At the very least, I strongly think that we need to change the seriously outdated language of The premiership was won by _______ (because who speaks like that, in person or in the media?) to something like _______ won its/their ____ premiership or _______ won the premiership, its/their ____ overall. I also think that in this same sentence, we should always state the grand final venue regardless of league or season – we can't expect a new reader to know that the AFL Grand Final is always played at the MCG except on a few occasions, for example.

With club leadership and milestone tables, the short answer for me is keep them (coaches and leadership groups should be sourced separately, however), and I think that listing 200th game and 400th goal upwards for AFL and 50th game/goal upwards for AFLW is sufficient, but some of you might feel differently. With the Indigenous Round rebrandings, obviously it's a newer initiative, but would it be better to just mention the rebrandings in the prose (to which we should be devoting more time anyway) and game notes and otherwise leave the club names as they are in the results, like we do with the other tables? For the leading goalkicker table, I've reformatted the table for recent seasons, and in doing so, I've highlighted up to three players who led the goalkicking at the end of a round (if more than three players led at the end of a round, e.g. at the start of the season, this wouldn't apply) and kept them at the bottom of the table regardless of placing if they weren't in the top ten at the end of the season, even if they only led for a round (e.g. Alyssa Bannan and Darcy Vescio led at the start of the 2023 AFLW season, and Peter Everitt led for four rounds during the 2000 AFL season); keen to get people's thoughts on these changes.

Regarding player movement periods (for starters, I think that drafts should be split into separate articles from player movement periods and the original articles should be moved to "____ AFL/AFL Women's player movement period", rather than us continue to house information and tables related to player movement in articles titled "draft"), I think that the period mentioned in the article should be the one that takes place after the season rather than before (e.g. 2023–24 AFLW should appear towards the end of the 2023 season article, not 2022–23 at the start) or, failing that, both; I initially mentioned both in 2023 AFLW, but think that the latter holds more relevance to that season. As I said in the GAN discussion, yes, the player movement period introduces players to lists for the following season, but also includes retirements, delistings, etc. that are more relevant to the previous season; I think that the timing is also a factor (take the 2018 AFLW off-season, for example, when the trade period was held in May – it just seems weird to me having a trade period that happened in May 2018 appear in the 2019 season article). Regardless, I think that these should at least be mentioned.

Anyway, thanks for reading, and keen to get everyone's thoughts; if anyone has any other points that they'd like to discuss regarding season articles, regardless of league (though most of the points that I raised mainly just cover AFL and AFLW), please feel free. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 13:47, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for keeping on trying to improve things mate :)
Regarding the lede section I agree with you about the rewording. And I agree about keeping the leadership and milestone tables.
Indigenous Round rebrandings - I think the names should be changed as well, as is done on the official AFL site and in media. That's kind of the point of the rebrandings, not to be just a side note.
Not sure I entirely understood your player movement point. I think the player movement periods should appear with the season they will affect. So for examples delistings, retirements, trades, and drafts happening between the end of the 2023 season and until the 2024 season, should be listed with the 2024 season.
Cheers mate --SuperJew (talk) 14:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My views:
  • Reigning premiers in the lead strong oppose. Sorry to start with a high horse rant, but this has always been a bugbear of mine. Each season is a standalone event, and the previous premiership is wholly irrelevant to it. Reigning premiers shouldn't be mentioned in the prose, let alone the lead, except when implied by mention of back to back premiers. Furthermore, the reigning premiers aren't otherwise mentioned in the prose, which is a contravention of WP:LEAD: Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article. I know a lot of other sports include reigning premiers in their leads, but they shouldn't. I've always found it a distraction to the lead because the reigning premiers gets listed before the premiers of the primary topic of the article despite only passing relevance; read any Eurovision Song Contest article, for example, and the previous winning song is always the first song mentioned, which makes zero sense to me. Reigning premiers should only be included in things like the old Davis Cup or World Chess Championship where it's relevant as part of the new season's qualification.
  • Minor premiers. I oppose in that form, but I recognise that this section is a bit lean and would benefit from a longer 'tale of the season' so to speak, and happy to collaborate on it. My opposition to this form is the difference in historical significance of minor premiership vs major premiership is substantial; when looked at through history, major premiership and runners up are much more heavily reported and remembered than the minor premiers in sources, and (except in the record breaking performances like Collingwood 1929 or Essendon 2000) references to minor premiers win/loss records are largely confined to databases, making that statistical element too detailed for the lead. (Edit 11 April: perhaps instead put the minor premiers WLD in the infobox, similar to the Coleman Medallist's goal tally, rather than in the prose of the lead). My concern with the way it reads in your suggestion would imply to a neutral reader that the two titles are viewed with almost equal importance, like in the A League - which I think we should all be able to agree is not the case in Australian rules. My suggestion to provide greater detail to the tale of the season while maintaining top-down importance would be, using 2019 as an example, The Richmond Football Club, which finished third on the home-and-away ladder, won the premiership after it defeated sixth-placed Greater Western Sydney by 89 points in the 2019 AFL Grand Final. It was Richmond's twelfth premiership. The minor premiership was won by Geelong, which finished third after being eliminated in the preliminary finals. I recognise that you and I have had this debate about sequencing things by chronology vs importance before, but I'm strongly of the view that we need to go by importance in the lead, hence my order; and going reigning-minor-major is the opposite.
  • Re syntax. I chose the passive voice sentence syntax when I wrote these leads, largely to get around any its-vs-their arguments and have a sentence structure which could be consistent for clubs which are written as singular vs plural. But that's not the only way to deal with that so fine with reworking it.
  • I disagree with stating the grand final venue as a standard. That is a fact about the grand final, not a fact about the season. Particularly since it seldom changes, I think as a one-step-removed fact its of too low an importance for the season lead.
  • I also disagree with defining the minor premiership - when a link to the minor premiership page can sort that out. I think that approach adequately satisfies the competing intents of Use Australian English and MOS:INTRO's Make the lead section accessible to as broad an audience as possible.
  • Club leadership, I think it's worth having, but due to my sequencing preference for importance over chronology I'd move it lower in the article.
  • Milestones list, I'd happily expunge. The separate table was created as a compromise to keep milestones in the articles but stop them from junking up the game notes (since that's where they used to be placed) and that's fine by me, but my overall preference is to remove them and let the club season pages present that information because its a bit on the crufty side when compared with everything else in the article.
  • Indigenous Round rebrands: I think readability is harmed by using the rebrand names in the template, and it's definitely not sustainable as more teams will likely start rebranding and the explanatory note will lengthen. My suggested approach is to write a new Sir Douglas Nicholls Round article, including a subsection which mentions each club's rebrands, link to that subsection in a short all-encompassing gamenote/roundnote, and then use the English names otherwise.
  • Leading goalkicker suggestion: perhaps only include players who led from round 5 onwards as a cutoff, rather than using 'number of joint leaders' as the criterion? Otherwise no strong views.
  • The draft pages have definitely experienced a lot of scope creep over the last 20 years, so a refresh makes sense in some respects - but it's also pretty useful to have trades, free agency compensation and the drafts all together in one place given they all involve draft picks. But apologies, I'm not quite understanding exactly what you're proposing? Could you elaborate? Aspirex (talk) 00:45, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Club leadership should be trimmed to coaches and captains. Vice-captains and broader leadership groups are not prominent enough outside a specific club's audience to justify their inclusion in a broader season article – e.g. in 2023 AFLW season the leadership groups are all sourced to club websites. These groups can be adequately covered in club season articles.
  • Milestone tables should be trimmed to those of broad interest as determined by which milestones tend to get detailed coverage in reliable sources. If instances of a milestone are mostly sourced to databases or passing mentions (e.g. teams listings that mention "Milestones: Joe Bloggs, 50 games") these should not be included. Your AFL standards seem intuitively reasonable, no view on the AFLW.
  • I have no objection to discussing the reigning premiers in a season article or even in the lead if called for, as a common aspect of a season's tale is how the previous champions get on – do they establish a dynasty or end up with a premiership hangover?
  • Contra SuperJew my searches during the 2023 AFLW GAN found third-party sources did not necessarily use the rebranded names during Indigenous Round. In general we should be using terminology that will be coherent when discussing the season as a whole, so we should at most mention but not use the rebranded names.
  • I like Asperix's standard of only mentioning leading goalkickers outside the top 10 if they led the tally after round 5.
  • After reflecting a little on player movement periods the problem seems to be the same period contains moves involving players chiefly relevant to the preceding season but also players chiefly relevant to the next season. An established veteran retiring is most relevant to the last season, while the new number-one pick is most relevant to the next season – but both could happen in the same movement period. Maybe the solution is to mention both the preceding and following movement periods but explicitly tailor the summaries to the season's context rather than summarising everything that went on in the period.
– Teratix ₵ 10:26, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There must be a better or more nuanced approach to handling the discussion of dynastic performance than just a standard listing the reigning premiers' performance, though. If I considered Richmond 2017-2020, for example, I would think it appropriate to say This was the first/second/third of three premierships won by Richmond over four years between 2017-2020 in each of the premiership years; and if there's a Richmond story to be told in 2018, its the fact that this was their one non-premiership year, not the fact that they finished third in that specific year without reference to the two years that followed. What is the dynastic story for the Bulldogs' 2016 flag: for me it's more that they won a flag by having one good year without a prolonged period of success (i.e. 2016 was the only year that decade in which they won a final), far moreso than the fact that they came tenth in 2017 - and that context would all belong in the 2016 lead. Perhaps there isn't a single consistent format we can take and we would just need to agree on what gets included season-by-season - but that comes with a risk of trivia gradually bloating the leads. Aspirex (talk) 21:37, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, that's why I made sure to say "if called for", i.e. depending on the specific season. I don't see how this principle risks "trivia gradually bloating the leads". If mentioning the reigning premier is trivial, remove it. If it is not trivial, include it. – Teratix ₵ 04:32, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aspirex, I wholeheartedly disagree with the view that reigning premiers shouldn't be mentioned in the prose, let alone the lead, and that there isn't a single consistent format that we can use and going season-by-season would solve the problem – a simple mention in the lead is hardly distracting, for one, but there's always scope for reigning premiers to be mentioned in the prose (e.g. premiership favouritism, unveiling of the flag, current season performance including missing finals if applicable, potential season events) or other sections like season notes (e.g. historic feats like the last two reigning premiers being the first since 1976 to lose their first three games of the next season); as before, we should be putting a lot more time into prose. I'm also concerned that you would argue only linking minor premiership would make the lead section accessible to as broad an audience as possible – if anything, directing readers who might not be familiar with the term (one that is seldom used outside of Australia, if at all) away from the article to get an understanding for it, all for the sake of trimming a few words, would do less for that than also briefly defining the term. If you want to trim a few words from the lead, get rid of the grand final teams' ladder finishes and after-finals rankings (1. again, who says/uses this, and 2. where do they appear in the rest of the article?) from your example; adding the win/loss/draw record to the infobox rather than the text won't solve the problem either, given how packed the infobox gets by season's end compared to the "lean" lead prose, to use your words. Otherwise, the leading goalkicker table point was more about including players who led during the season in the table regardless of where they finish than having a cutoff point, but I still think that as long as it isn't a large number of players (e.g. more than three), there isn't any harm in highlighting round leaders from the start of the season; for example, there were only two equal leaders after Opening Round this year, and only one after round 1 last year.
Regarding player movement (now also directed at SuperJew), see 2023–24 AFL Women's player movement period and 2023 AFL Women's draft to get an idea of how I think these types of articles should be revamped – I think that the draft(s) is significant and distinct enough to be WP:SPLIT from the player movement article, even if the draft plays a role in the overall period – and 2023 AFL Women's season#Player movement and draft for how I think this should be referred to in season articles. My view, a bit like Teratix followed up with, is that there is just as much (if not more) relevant to one season (retirements and delistings) as the next (drafts and other signings), with trades bridging the two, but I also think that timing is a factor. I don't have a problem with both periods being mentioned in some capacity in the same season article compared to only mentioning the former – so no, I don't agree with the "season it will affect" argument and just mentioning the preceding period. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 17:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll clarify that when I say the reigning premiers 'shouldn't be mentioned in the prose', I'm referring to an article with the level of prose we have today; in a properly written 2-3 paragraph subsection which outlines teams' performances and the broader context, I would have no issue making reference to the reigning premiers. But I still can't agree with including the reigning premiers as a standard feature of every season lead. There so many facts which better represent and introduce the subject of an AFL season than the finishing position of the previous year's reigning premiers.
Defining minor premiership still feels unnecessary to me; I feel it's pretty stock standard to use a sport's understood terminology with links, and assume a general level of familiarity with the sport from the reader. The 2019 Australian Open lead links and does not define 'Grand Slam', 'Open Era' and 'lucky losers' – all of those terms (except perhaps Grand Slam) would be roughly as unfamiliar to a non-tennis reader as minor premiership would be to a non-Australian rules football reader. (Also, our articles do have the complexity of Australian rules football's unusual usages of the terms 'semi-final' and 'preliminary final' – which would be less broadly understandable than 'minor premiership' – and I wouldn't want to get into a position of having to define those as well, since it would make the lead more definition than content).
I can't understand your point about the infobox getting 'packed with information' and how that does not "solve the problem" (in fact, I'm not sure what the problem is here that you think needs solving)? The entire benefit of having an infobox is to quickly relay high point statistical, and listing the minor premier's WLD record next to the minor premier's name seems like a simple approach to doing that.
I do agree that there can be a consistent lead format and that we're going to avoid a lot of arguments by creating it and sticking to it – I just thought I'd pitch that idea out there as an alternative.
I thought including the ladder placings would be an efficient way to get a bit more tale-of-the-season information into the lead, and I still don't think it's necessarily a bad option, but I'm not going to push that with any strength. The main point I'd make on this is that I feel it would be much more relevant on any given season page to list that season's grand finalists' H&A finishing positions in the lead than the previous season's premier's performance.
I see your point about post-finals finishing positions - although I use them fairly extensively myself, I recognise is the more obscure way to approach it and referring to the week-of-finals-exit makes more sense for the lead.
Can I suggest the following alternative compromise template. The Richmond Football Club won the premiership, defeating Geelong by 31 points in the 2020 AFL Grand Final. It was Richmond's second consecutive premiership, and 13th VFL/AFL premiership overall. Port Adelaide won the minor premiership for finishing atop the ladder after the home-and-away season, and was eliminated in the preliminary finals. Per MOS:NUMERAL, numerals or ordinals zero to nine must be spelled in words; and by choice we agree to use numerals for anything 10 or higher; we would just say VFL premiership instead of VFL/AFL premiership in seasons earlier than 1990.
Also worth pointing out and discussing while we're on the subject: when I put the current leads together, I tried to limit mention of any onfield achievement to only the very most significant all-time records and firsts. A full list of facts/records I called out in leads about onfield achievements is as follows: Fitzroy's 1916 flag from the wooden spoon; Collingwood's record 19–0 home-and-away record in 1929; Collingwood's record fourth straight premiership in 1930; Geelong's record 23-game win streak in 1952 (choosing that season to mention it instead of 1953 because the streak included the 1952 grand final); the record grand final crowd in 1970; Essendon's record 24–1 full season record in 2000; Pratt's and Hudson's record 150-goal seasons in 1934 and 1971; St Kilda being the last foundation club to win a premiership in 1966; North Melbourne being the last VFL club to win a premiership in 1975; West Coast being the first interstate club to win a premiership in 1992; South Melbourne/Sydney's record 72-year drought ending in 2005; and Geelong's record 119-point grand final win in 2007. While we're debating a consistent template, we should probably come to an agreement on whether this list of exceptions is worth preserving, or expanding.
On the subject of player movements, I think at a league season article level (which is what 4theWynne is looking at) it doesn't matter too much; but in the club season articles it makes the most sense to have all player movements grouped with the subsequent season (i.e. the season they affect); that means the subsequent club season page contains both that season's playing list, and all of the changes to tell the story of how the club built that list; the league season article should then fall in line with the club season articles for project-wide consistency. In my view, the only player movements that would be more associated with the prior season than the subsequent season are: retirements of notable players, since there will be announcements, farewell games, grand final motorcades etc. all historically connected to that prior season; and midseason sackings, for obvious reasons. I would associate delistings more closely with the subsequent season than the prior season because they're more of a transactional list management matter related to building that subsequent season's list.
On the goalkicking table, I'm not fussed out the outcome. Let my suggestion be considered but not influence the final consensus. Aspirex (talk) 22:18, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that something like this would be a fairer compromise for the lead:
For 2020: Reigning premier Richmond won the premiership, its third in four seasons and 13th VFL/AFL premiership overall, defeating Geelong by 31 points in the 2020 AFL Grand Final. Port Adelaide won the minor premiership by finishing atop the ladder at the end of the home-and-away season with a 14–3 win/loss record, but was defeated by Richmond in the preliminary finals.
For 2023: Collingwood won the premiership, its 16th VFL/AFL premiership overall, defeating the Brisbane Lions by four points in the 2023 AFL Grand Final. Collingwood won the minor premiership by finishing atop the ladder at the end of the home-and-away season with an 18–5 win/loss record. Geelong was the reigning premier, but did not qualify for finals.
And for 2023 AFLW: Brisbane won the premiership, its second AFL Women's premiership overall, defeating North Melbourne by four points in the 2023 AFL Women's Grand Final. Adelaide won the minor premiership by finishing atop the ladder at the end of the home-and-away season with a 9–1 win/loss record, but was eliminated by North Melbourne in the preliminary finals. Melbourne was the reigning premier, but was eliminated by Geelong in the semi-finals.
This way, the order of elements is reversed and the grand final venue is omitted, but the reigning premier (in the case of 2020, the premiership and reigning premier are in the one sentence), minor premiership definition and win/loss record are retained. I always spell out zero to twelve, for what it's worth; and yes, the historical achievements/feats should be retained, but I'm not 100% sure that the list should end there. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:55, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy with words up to twelfth. I'm still not happy with the win/loss record or the reigning premiers in the lead, but I'll compromise on win/loss record if we get rid of reigning premiers. I also noticed (which I hadn't spotted before) that you've included who eliminated the minor premiers, not just which round they were eliminated in - I feel that's too much detail for the lead. Brisbane won the premiership, defeating North Melbourne by four points in the 2023 AFL Women's Grand Final. It was Brisbane's second AFL Women's premiership. Adelaide won the minor premiership by finishing atop the ladder at the end of the home-and-away season with a 9–1 win/loss record, but was eliminated in the preliminary finals. I'd prefer to see the grand final result before interseasonal context, i.e. Richmond won the premiership, defeating Geelong by 31 points in the 2020 AFL Grand Final. It was Richmond's third premiership in four seasons and 13th VFL/AFL premiership overall. Port Adelaide won the minor premiership by finishing atop the ladder at the end of the home-and-away season with a 14–3 win/loss record, but was defeated in the preliminary finals. In an article about the season, that season should come first. Also, don't need the word 'overall' for premiership count unless there is also a shorter timescale premiership count listed. Aspirex (talk) 21:30, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll go with moving the win/loss record to the infobox and changing the wording to push inter-seasonal context back for the premier if we keep the reigning premier and which teams eliminated the reigning and minor premiers. If you take those elements out, the end result is hardly any different from the original wording other than a little tweak of the language used and the addition of the minor premier – hardly a compromise. Take your most recent examples – if the lead for another season was worded that way and I read it, my first thought would be "OK, (was defeated) by who?". It's not too detailed at all – it's not as if I'm adding the bloody semi-final venue or anything that's a genuine stretch for detail/context. To your intial point, while each season is a standalone event, the premiership/team that won it is still relevant; how do they progress in the ensuing season(s) – how far do they fall, or how does the shift in power/success happen, if at all? It makes for an interesting story and is hardly irrelevent to, or a distraction from, the current season; this is even reflected in media coverage of seasons – for example, [1], [2] (2023 AFLW), [3] (2022 AFL), [4] (2021 AFL), [5] (2018 AFL). I've already addressed your other concerns about this element by agreeing to reverse the order of elements in the paragraph and endeavouring to cover reigning premiers in the prose so that it isn't solely mentioned in the lead, and am pretty adamant that omitting the teams that eliminated the reigning and minor premiers will genuinely detract from the sentence(s)/leave it looking like it's missing something (plus, you're willing to go with with a 14–3 win/loss record, but by Richmond is too detailed?), so I'm not budging on those two elements. Gotta give and take, mate. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 06:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will not agree to any compromise which includes reigning premiers. I can think of at least ten things better representative of a standard season's onfield results which I would rather expand the lead to include: the Coleman and Brownlow Medallists, their tallies, premiership captain and coach, total attendance, a list of all teams which made the finals, the name of the AFL CEO/president, the wooden spooner and what they did with the No. 1 draft pick, and any coach sackings - because everything in that list is more iconic or notable to the season in question than the prior premiers' finishing position. And I believe your references even support my point: the 2023 AFLW reference ranked it the 9th biggest story; the 2023 AFL one is ranked the 17th biggest story; the 2021 AFL is just an article about Richmond, WP:ROUTINE coverage in context; and I can't even see the reigning premiers performance listed in your 2018 AFL reference unless it's buried in the Tom Lynch item in 7th – and yet you are trying to convince us that this fact is so important that it should be one of the top three things mentioned as a standard in every single season article. The 17th-biggest story of 2023, and you're telling me it belongs in the lead? Surely you must understand why I'm so adamant about its exclusion here. Aspirex (talk) 07:20, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's your opinion; the reigning premier/its performance may not necessarily be a top story of every season, but the only thing you've listed that consistently topped it in the references that I used as examples was the new premier/its finals run. Regardless, there seems to be a level of agreement here that the reigning premier can at least be mentioned in the lead if notable rather than excluded entirely. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 18:11, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone else want to weigh in? Tagging Storm machine, HiLo48, The-Pope, Hawkeye7, Gibbsyspin, Jjamesryan, SportingFlyer, Lindsay658, Jenks24, Totallynotarandomalt69 and anyone else who might be interested, not just in the lead but other elements that I've brought up or you might want to bring up yourself. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 07:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just to acknowledge that I've seen your invitation, no, these article are a bit beyond my level of interest. I'll pass thanks. HiLo48 (talk) 07:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, likewise. Sorry. I have never really cared too much for the season articles so I can't really provide an informed opinion. Gibbsyspin 14:22, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On the matter of 'who eliminated whom', I realise on reflection that I have no problem with it for the minor premiers, since its usually a grand finalist anyway. It's the reigning premier example which felt wrong because the mention of Geelong in the 2023 AFLW example felt entirely non-sequitur given neither Geelong nor its finishing position were otherwise mentioned. So I'm fine with mentioning the team who eliminated the minor premiers; except that if it's a straight-sets exit, I would suggest including either both or neither of the winning teams with the emphasis being on the straight sets nature of the exit (of course without using the words 'straight sets'). Aspirex (talk) 09:43, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ping, this is another constructive and thoughtful discussion – You love to see it. A big reason why this part of the wiki is in good shape.
For the lede, I'm agreeing with @Aspirex who has a similar view to me of using the Inverted pyramid (journalism), with the hierarchy being:
  1. Who won the Grand Final, against who, and where was it (location being relevant for AFLW, less so for AFLM)?
  2. Who were the minor premiers, and how did they go during the finals?
  3. If notable, who were the reigning premiers and how did they do during the season/finals? (eg Geelong AFLM last year missing the finals is somewhat notable, if they had scraped into the finals and were eliminated immediately, not so much?)
I'm always an advocate for more referenced prose, so re-reading the AFLW 23 article, that overview section is a delight.
For the other points – the club leadership table feels encyclopedic, and its current prominence is fine in the sense that it surreptitiously details who was competing in the season and the key personnel. I agree with those that have suggested trimming it to just coach/captain and eliminating vice-captain and leadership group, but given some yearly team articles are light on/non-existent, the current format is appropriate. WP:SOURCESEXIST too for these outside club sites. The current limits on the milestone tables (especially AFLM) is appropriate, the AFLW one looks unwieldy at 50 matches, but it is what it is. @4TheWynne the leading goalkicker changes look really good.
Separate articles for the draft (which is an event anyway and separate on the US-sports articles) and player movement seems obvious now, the 2023-24 AFLW pages are a great precedent. Storm machine (talk) 01:02, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to acknowledge your thoughtful invitation. These matters, all relating to perspectives of the marketing of commercial Aussie Rules the 21st century, are outside of my expertise and interest; and, therefore, I can't really make any comment. However, you do have my best wishes.Lindsay658 (talk) 23:40, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to those who have responded so far. For the lead, going over everything we have (and haven't) covered so far, it could look something like this:
The 2023 AFL season was the 127th season of the Australian Football League (AFL), the highest level senior men's Australian rules football competition in Australia, which was known as the Victorian Football League until 1989 (is this last part definitely needed?). The season featured 18 clubs and ran from 16 March to 30 September, comprising a 23-match home-and-away season for the first time in league history, followed by a four-week finals series featuring the top eight clubs.
Collingwood won the premiership, defeating the Brisbane Lions by four points in the 2023 AFL Grand Final; it was Collingwood's 16th VFL/AFL premiership. Collingwood won the minor premiership by finishing atop the ladder at the end of the home-and-away season with an 18–5 win/loss record. (In this case, if we consider it notable enough) Reigning premier Geelong failed to qualify for finals, finishing twelfth. (This could be extended to include the "first reigning premier since 1976 to lose its opening three matches" stat if necessary?)
Is there anything else that could potentially be added, removed or otherwise changed? Outside of the lead, most of us seem to agree on each of the other elements mentioned, but feel free to rehash anything or, again, bring up other points from season articles if anyone wishes. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 18:11, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not wedded to mentioning the VFL name change in the lead, but have found the current approach to be a useful middle ground position in acknowledging the league's mostly Victorian history without implying the existence of an acknowledged 'AFL era'. This used to be presented in this much more heavy handed manner. Should note that the word 'men's' should only be used from 2017 onwards. I still oppose reigning premiers in all cases, to ensure consistency year-to-year; consistency is to me a lot more important in the lead, especially when these planned prose summaries can be more readily flexed to fit season-by-season variations in notability. Finally, your last comment. I've already stated my position on what standard of notability should be upheld for inclusion of onfield records in the lead with the list in this diff. Could it be made a little less exclusive, yes; but is "the fourth time a reigning premier started the next year with a three-game H&A losing streak" so notable that it should go in the lead? Well my answer is obviously no, preceded by several choice adjectives. That is such low level cruft, I don't know how you could possibly suggest putting that into the lead and think that would help the article to achieve a GA standard.

Well, again, that's your opinion. SuperJew, Teratix, Storm machine, anything you guys want to add? 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 01:47, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have to be honest, I don't think any sort of attempt to work out a formula for writing season leads will produce more than a stopgap. Any lead will almost certainly need to be replaced if someone gives the article serious attention, because what deserves mention in the lead depends on what has happened during the season – which is always different. That's what makes footy interesting. – Teratix ₵ 06:07, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and no – I don't think it's impossible to come up with a few permanent elements to throw in the lead, or that it would necessarily need to be overhauled if someone wanted to raise the standard of the article (it could, however, be grounds for another discussion like this one), but I agree that no two leads are going to look 100% the same when you throw in other points specific to the season. I guess we're now just trying to get to the bottom of what other things we can include/are notable enough, along with the permanent elements. Aspirex is evidently being strict on the matter, where I'm trying to be a little more open-minded – I was just following on from Storm machine's point about Geelong's 2023 performance by suggesting that the 1976 stat could be used to support it in the lead, and think that other stats could be used similarly. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:25, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we in the long run we save ourselves a lot of grief and debate by having a very rigidly defined lead, followed by an expansive and changeable summary prose section straight after. Aspirex (talk) 00:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It would save you a lot of grief if we just ended this discussion and did things your way, I'm sure, but as you said yourself, the section's pretty slim, so nothing wrong with a bit of discussion to find other things to add, permanent or not; I'm fairly certain your idea of "low-level cruft" is a little different to others. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 13:04, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of what we decide, it's going to save grief for everyone if we have a consistent approach to the lead, because lead changes will always be controversial when they can or must be made across 130 articles. The point I'm making is that 'Geelong started 0-3' describes an event which occurred in the season, while 'first time that has happened since 1976' is related WP:TRIVIA; the former belongs in the prose, the latter belongs in the season notes section, and neither is so important to a reader's introduction to an AFL season that it should be among those five or six key facts in the lead. Aspirex (talk) 23:34, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
in the interest of trying to innovate to break an impasse, what if we expanded the lead with a more agreeable set of standard facts? Collingwood, captained by Darcy Moore and coached by Craig McRae, won the premiership, defeating the Brisbane Lions by four points in the 2023 AFL Grand Final; it was Collingwood's 16th VFL/AFL premiership. Collingwood also won the minor premiership by finishing atop the home-and-away ladder. Brisbane midfielder won his second Brownlow Medal as league fairest and best (or best and fairest), and Carlton forward Charlie Curnow won his second consecutive Coleman Medal as league leading goalkicker. It meets an objective of expanding the lead, which we both seem to be fine with, but without including the reigning premiers to which I'm so strongly opposed. Aspirex (talk) 02:23, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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