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'The Troubles in ...' articles: list entry criteria.[edit]

There is a unique list entry policy in many of the 'The Troubles in ...' suite of articles:

  • 'Notable incidents in ... during the Troubles, or ones resulting in two or more fatalities'

The term is problematic in two senses.

  1. The use of the word 'notable' - it is too subjective in this context and can lead to WP:NPOV problems. Also, the technical Wikipedia interpretation conflicts with the common understanding of the work 'notable' and that interpretation should not be enforced when it is front-facing.
  2. The 'ones resulting in two or more fatalities' condition is unnecessarily restrictive and leaves Wikipedia open to accusations of whitewashing - you may believe one 'side' or the other are benefitting from the 'forgetting' of those killings. The condition also calls in to question the authoritativeness of the encylopedia.

This issue has manifested on the The Troubles in Rosslea article where there is now a dispute as to whether the killings of individuals in up to 4 separate incidents, which are supported by Malcolm Sutton's authoritative index (CAIN) and elsewhere, can be included on the pre-existing list. The pre-existing list is just 4 other entries (one of which is an individual killing). At least three of the disputed cases are 'notable' in layman's terms (for example, two were in-front of children).

I suggest the Wikipedia authoritative list approach is the correct approach for the vast majority of this class of list article - WP:CSC. Consequently this class of article should default to 'Incidents in ... during the Troubles resulting in fatalities' and existing ones should be convertable to that criteria without controversy.

Supporting evidence is the organic direction of travel for many of the existing 'The Troubles in ...' articles already. I include three examples here:

  • The Troubles in Castlederg:
    • INITIAL: Incidents in Castlederg during the Troubles resulting in two or more fatalities:
    • NOW: Incidents in Castlederg during the Troubles:
  • The Troubles in Cookstown:
    • INITIAL: Incidents in Cookstown during the Troubles resulting in two or more fatalities:
    • NOW: Incidents in Cookstown during the Troubles resulting in fatalities:
  • The Troubles in Lisburn:
    • INITIAL: Incidents in Lisburn during the Troubles resulting in two or more fatalities:
    • NOW: Incidents in Lisburn during the Troubles resulting in fatalities:

Regards - 74 observer (talk) 14:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

The more important question is should the articles even exist at all? The Troubles in Derry is an encyclopedia article. The vast majority of the rest are not, despite existing for 15 years. Will any of them ever actually become encyclopedia articles? FDW777 (talk) 14:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
That's a different question. However my answer is yes as long as they are authoritative. 74 observer (talk) 14:54, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
One that needs to be answered. Furthermore At least three of the disputed cases are 'notable' in layman's terms (for example, two were in-front of children). What laymen are these? Ones you've just made up? FDW777 (talk) 14:57, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Also we've known about the CAIN database, as well as Malcolm Sutton's book, for years. It doesn't change the fact the "two fatalities" standard was still used. FDW777 (talk) 15:09, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
That seems unnecessarily... combative? Notability does not apply to content within articles - WP:NOTEWORTHY. If we have sources, the information can be included within these articles. An arbitrary guideline, introduced years ago, can be changed. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:18, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Yes it can apply, see WP:LISTCRITERIA. I'd say saying an incident is notable because someone was killed in front of children is even more arbitrary than a two fatalities standard. FDW777 (talk) 15:20, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
So why not use a "recorded fatality" standard? That way, Vol. Séamus McElwaine's murder at the hands of the SAS could remain. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 19:04, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure what "recorded fatality" means. The inclusion criteria do allow for the inclusion of notable incidents, which is incidents or people with articles. It would be a strange state of affairs that we could consider someone notable enough for a Wikipedia article, yet not record their Troubles-related death in one of the "Troubles in [insert name]" articles. FDW777 (talk) 19:40, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
I pointed this out as issue (1) above. You are using 'notable' in Wikipedia technical sense to include McElwaine and exclude others. Yet the front-usage of the term requires the ordinary understanding (which means the reasonable user of an encyclopedia would expect to see Deering, McVitty and Kernaghan as well). Your approach raises issues with WP:N and WP:NPOV. The WP:CSC option resolves this issue via the authoritative list. 74 observer (talk) 20:25, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
A recorded fatality in this context is - obviously - a Troubles-related fatality that's been reliably recorded as such. Sutton and CAIN are the usually accepted authoritative sources. But of course, you know this. It would be a strange state of affairs to exclude some Troubles-related killings based on an arbitrary number of fatalities actually occurring. Can I ask, who decided on this magic number of two, and when and where was it agreed? Is there any reason it can't be changed? There are plenty of instances of the British Army and/or loyalist gangs killing single nationalists/uninvolved civilians - say, for instance, the unlawful killing of John Pat Cunningham, shot in the back by, allegedly, Dennis Hutchings, or the killing of Carol Ann Kelly, a child shot with a rubber bullet, to pick just two. I'm surprised you'd want those excluded from coverage and at a loss to understand how it benefits the project. We won't run out of room. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 00:40, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
I can answer your question, Bastun. All of the "The Troubles in..." articles were created by Ardfern between 28 August 2006 and 19 September 2006. The creation of the articles followed this discussion on the Northern Irish Wikipedians' notice board, where editors were complaining about Arfern's addition of the lists to the towns' articles. Only Ardfern specified a minimum of two deaths; nobody agreed with this, although everybody was happy to let him go ahead because it solved the immediate problem. According to Ardfern at the bottom of that discussion, he created 97 such articles. Several of them have been merged – minus the list of victims' names – or redirected back into the town article (eg. The Troubles in Kilrea), or to incident-specific articles (e.g. The Troubles in Ballykelly, The Troubles in Castlerock, The Troubles in Warrenpoint). --Scolaire (talk) 11:44, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for that! I see Ardfern is still editing on an irregular basis, so may spot this ping and contribute here? It seems that discussion eventually led to the "Troubles in..." series of articles, but the "two fatalities minimum" was/is fairly arbitrary. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:12, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I've been delving in to Ardfern's justification for these 'stub' articles as he explains Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/The_Troubles_in_Moneymore. The '2 or more fatalities' criteria was part justification for only creating a stub - seems it made the effort feasible within a restricted time-frame. In relation to the Moneymore stub he explains "it covers incidents of 2 fatalities or more, but the objective is to expand them all to cover all incidents". He also points out "these 97 articles are there because of substantial debate [...], the conclusion of which was that all troubles incidents articles should remain separate from town/village articles". He argues by way of justification on "the Wiki way" and that "CAIN does not provide info by town, hence the value of this article in its connection to the village". 74 observer (talk) 18:34, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
I find it hard to argue with those points. Indeed I see The Troubles in Rosslea as a great place to start in driving these stubs to encyclopedical standard as there are just 4 known additional entries required on that article. 74 observer (talk) 18:34, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete all. Every, or nearly every article is in direct breach of WP:NOTMEMORIAL, being only lists of non-notable (in any sense) people who died. Note that victims' names have been removed from articles such as Birmingham pub bombings (discussion here) and La Mon restaurant bombing (discussion here). In those circumstances, having dozens of articles consisting only of victims' names makes no sense. Clearly, opening an AfD for all extant articles would require somebody with time and dedication. If you wanted to start small, the obvious place to start would be The Troubles in Rosslea. --Scolaire (talk) 12:19, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
I do not see the WP:NOTMEMORIAL policy as being relevant here at all. The policy states: 'Subjects of encyclopedia articles must satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirements. Wikipedia is not the place to memorialize deceased friends, relatives, acquaintances, or others who do not meet such requirements.' That policy is clearly aimed at preventing memorials along the lines you see on Such memorials are not the case here, a list of fatal incidents due to specific reasons in a locality is a substantially different thing - the very existence of the list itself in a locality being the notable aspect. 74 observer (talk) 17:57, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
@74 observer: If you truly believe that, why did you leave an edit summary of "Douglas Deering will not be forgotten" --Scolaire (talk) 13:36, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
A fair enough comment at the time because the intent behind the intransigent enforcement of the 'list criteria' was immediately transparent to me. It may have been somewhat triggering. However, this is now an encylopediacal matter. 74 observer (talk) 17:15, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
Yet presumably while WP:NOTMEMORIAL would apply to Birmingham pub bombings and La Mon restaurant bombing, it would not equally apply to Bloody Sunday (1972) and similar, because... reasons? Ah, yes, the Bloody Sunday article lists how/when/where each person died. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 22:47, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
@Bastun: I have not said anything about the Bloody Sunday article. Maybe you're confusing me with Domer48 and BigDunc? If you want to raise that question again there's nothing stopping you. Scolaire (talk) 13:43, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
:-) I'm ten+ years older and wiser, and not going down that particular rabbit-hole again! BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:42, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Alternatively, redirect those articles that have one blue-linked incident, and merge – minus victims' names – those articles that have more than one blue-linked incident back into the town article. In Rosslea's case, this would mean redirecting to Attack on Derryard checkpoint. --Scolaire (talk) 12:25, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Update as per normal using the standard Wikipedia criteria regarding sources and references and remove bespoke and arbitrary restrictions in doing so - the organic process. 74 observer (talk) 21:50, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Update as per normal, using the standard Wikipedia criteria regarding sources and references, per 74 observer, including relevant details and references rather than just a list of names, to satisfy WP:NOTMEMORIAL. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 22:47, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Remove all non-notable people killed, per WP:LISTPEOPLE. Or alternately, just delete almost every single one of the articles as being a transparent memorial and not what the article titles claim. FDW777 (talk) 13:39, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

————— 74 observer (talk) 21:21, 22 May 2021 (UTC) —————

Based on the discussions etc., the proposed change is in fact supported by:

  1. The WP:CSC policy supports the complete list: "Short, complete lists of every item that is verifiably a member of the group".
  2. Not completing the list leaves Wikipedia subject to an interpretation of bias violating WP:NPOV.
  3. There is nothing sacrosanct about the original and arbritary list criteria. The original intent of the article creator (Ardfern) was to expand the selection criteria over time (as highlighted above).
  4. There is precedent to these exact changes - The Troubles in Castlederg, The Troubles in Lisburn have naturally evolved as expected.
  5. Policy WP:NOTMEMORIAL is satisfied by the non-memorial type details that are included on the list, i.e. information about the actual incident etc.
  6. There is no 'listing' issue here as the lists are naturally bounded.
    1. Wikipedia notabilty per WP:N of each individual entry is NOT relevant to the proposed list.
    2. Likewise WP:LISTPEOPLE does NOT apply. The list will be of 'incidents in X that resulted in fatalities'.
I reject your sumary of the discussuion, since it simply seeks to ignore any oppoisition based in guidelines and policies by pretending they don't apply. FDW777 (talk) 06:57, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
FDW777 - please review the 5 pillars in particular WP:5P2 (neutrality), WP:5P3 (anyone to edit, no ownership) and WP:5P4 (respect). 74 observer (talk) 19:46, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

————— 74 observer (talk) 14:29, 12 June 2021 (UTC) —————

The article The Troubles in Rosslea has been updated as per WP:CSC. Bona-fide and good faith reviews are welcome.

No consensus for the change, especially since most of the entries fail the notability criteria thus failing WP:CSC. FDW777 (talk) 17:25, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
That is not the issue as you are by now well aware and are actively preventing constructive wiki-like progress on this project. You didn't review the 5 pillars as I requested above. Please review WP:5P2 (neutrality), WP:5P3 (anyone to edit, no ownership) and WP:5P4 (respect). 74 observer (talk) 20:14, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
You can make vague hints at policy as much as you like, unless you're going to quote the exact wording it's meaningless. No ownership means you don't get to make whatever change you like, quite obviously. FDW777 (talk) 20:16, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
This has been gone over with you several times at this stage. See above. Likewise you do not have ownership over this article. I'm the one making constructive updates to bring the article up to standard and I'd like that effort to be respected.


I'll ask this question here as well. The following killings have been removed from the The Troubles in Rosslea article by User:FDW777. Can anyone give some feedback on what they see as the rationale for rigidly enforcing an arbitrary and ambigious list critera that excludes the below killings from the article, whilst the WP:CSC policy would readily include them - "Short, complete lists of every item that is verifiably a member of the group". Some feedback would be useful. Thanks 74 observer (talk) 20:38, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

  • 15 October 1979 - Herbert Kernaghan (36).[2] Member of the Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR). Killed by the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) in front of several dozen school children whilst delivering vegetables to St Tierney's primary school Roslea. School staff were held at gun point while the IRA waited for Kernaghan to arrive.[3]
  • 8 July 1986 - John McVitty (46).[6] Member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC). Killed by the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) in front of his young son whilst cutting rushes on a neighbour's farm. Had stopped his tractor to talk to his 12 year old son when two IRA men emerged from a ditch and shot him in the back. The two men escaped across the Monaghan border approximately 400 yards away.[7]
  • 29 October 1988 - Mary Rooney (81).[8] Died from a heart attack soon after evacuation from her home due to a Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) mortar attack on Roslea's Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) base. Four mortars were fired from a stolen tractor on a Saturday evening. According to an RUC spokesperson, "responsibility for this death must lie with the IRA terrorists who fired the mortars".[9]
  • 17 July 1994 - Caroline Moreland (34).[10] A mother of three from west Belfast disappeared by the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) for 10 days and found shot in the head near Roslea. The IRA claimed she was an informer however the 10 days between disapperance and death led to questions about IRA torture to obtain admissions. For a number of years Caroline had been the vice-chairperson of the West Belfast Muscular Dystrophy Association.[11] Her killing was described by Cardinal Cathal Daly as "one particularly loathsome operation".[12]


The conclusion here from all this is update as per above. 74 observer (talk) 12:08, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

No, it isn't. FDW777 (talk) 12:19, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
The update has been made. You reverted and I restored. It's subject to a 1RR rule so do not revert for 24 hours. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74 observer (talkcontribs) 12:28, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Firstly—and to counter the bizarre claims that we should "delete all" such lists—if an editor wants to go that road, AfD is thataway. That's where inclusion is discussed, not remote backwaters. Secondly, there's some misunderstanding of the relevant policy in this discussion. The policy is clear that one accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources... notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list. I.e. the subject as a whole has been discussed, not the individual events for inclusion (Because the group or set is notable, the individual items in the list do not need to be independently notable). It is also true that policy provides that editors may, at their discretion, choose to limit large lists by only including entries for independently notable items or those with Wikipedia articles. But that, of course, clearly only applies to long lists that are becoming unmanageable; hardly a problem we are likely to face with the troubles in Rosslea, etc. ——Serial 13:07, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
  • I can't spead for wheoever decided to create the lists in the first place, but presumably they didn't want to document all 3,500+ deaths? Do we include lists of people who died during The Blitz in village/town/city articles? No. The decision, for whatever reason, was made to limit articles to include only notable incidents, and they set a benchmark of two deaths for that. FDW777 (talk) 13:14, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
That's why there's no List of victims of The Troubles, which would be unmanageable and so covered by WP:LISTN's caveat, while there are very small, manageable lists such as these. I don't personally, see the problem of including well-sourced material to an unoverburdened article; regardless of artificial criteria, I don't think stubs per se are a good thing or to be aspired to (tq|A stub should contain enough information for other editors to expand upon it}}, and all that). Mind you, I don't deny that in this topic more than many, POV rides again. ——Serial 13:22, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
That's the thing, they shouldn't be lists at all. The Troubles in Derry is an encyclopedia article, and doesn't even include a list of people that died there. Over the course of their existence nore time has been spent arguing about the inclusion criteria than writing encyclopedic articles. These lists are not a starting point, they are a dead end path to endless arguments. FDW777 (talk) 13:26, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
  • And for clarity the delete argument was intended as a potential solution to the problem, not an attempt to sidestep AFD. FDW777 (talk) 13:18, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Irish DYKs and International Museums Day[edit]

I spotted an interesting proposition over on the WikiProject Museums talk page about getting some museums included in the DYKs for International Museums Day next week. I have volunteered to try and expand the article on the NMI in Collins Barracks over the weekend (though this may be too big an ask given the turn around?) SeoR is going to take a look at MoLi, and Ceoil thought I should raise the idea more generally here. We've noted the absence of Pat Wallace, but a number of the former directors of the NMI are still missing, and it might be worth looking at some of the directors of other large institutions? The List of museums in the Republic of Ireland still has quite a number of red links, and gets the occasional edit to update the status of more local museums/heritage centres, but I suspect a number of these could be notable less for the museum and perhaps more for the building they are housed in? The Wikipedia Pages Wanting Photos campaign is coming up, and it might be something that Wikimedia Community Ireland could try raise broader awareness about - but getting pictures of local museums, libraries, galleries and archives is one area we could highlight? In the past I found myself relying on Geograph pictures for museum articles, and they are not always the most inspiring. Anyway, probably a bit rambly, but hopefully it makes a bit of sense! Smirkybec (talk) 23:02, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

To second Smirkybec; my suggestions is that this drive may (being very optimistic here) lead to a burst of new IRL related articles or GAs in the following week, and it would be beneficial to have some sort of sub-page were knowledgeable editors could chime in and improve. It might be hard to keep track of otherwise, while not having a central place would lead some to feel isolated and not part of anything. Ceoil (talk) 23:07, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I have a number of books that I can use to improve the various articles of the National Museum of Ireland, including The Story of Irish Museums by Marie Burke, which also covers a number of others like the NLI, NGI and the Chester Beatty. If others would like to come in an mention articles that they think could do with a bit of TLC to those that might be low hanging fruit for some GAs, that would be great. I can revisit the National Museum of Ireland – Natural History, I added to it awhile ago using the one history book written about it, but the citations are missing the page numbers. If I can fix that, then I don't think it would be too far off a GA itself, as the history is pretty comprehensive now given how relatively little there is formally written about it. Smirkybec (talk) 23:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Just to endorse, including the idea of a working space. I will give the Museum of Literature Ireland a good shot, and then might try to work up the Museum of Country Life, but there are so many potentials - only we found out about this year's drive quite close to time, so it's 1-2 per person, but also a good activity to plan for next year. Coverage of the Directors of the NMI is indeed disappointing, and while I improved a couple a little in the past, and Smirkybec has Pat Wallace in the queue, if someone had time in the next 2-3 days... SeoR (talk) 00:01, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Being bold, have created a not very clear or fancy sub-page, which hopefully can be used. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland/International Museums Day. Ceoil (talk) 00:49, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm always a bit cautious with BLPs, probably letting the perfect be the enemy of the good! Smirkybec (talk) 11:01, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Started main drive on MoLI this half hour. But for BLPs, absolutely, especially the Wallace one - Google shows much good career coverage, but also, especially in the latter years, some controversy also, so delicate handling... I think that for this tight timing, we're best sticking to bricks-and-mortar. SeoR (talk) 15:34, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

MoLI done and submitted to DYK. Real Life kept popping up, so I'm not sure I'll get to do another today / tomorrow, but I think it would be great to keep going over the months ahead, and have a slate ready for next year. I went through the List of museums in the Republic of Ireland and visited more than half. Not so easy to update 5x, I'm afraid - many are of middling length already, and with poor sources, at least quickly, for major expansion. SeoR (talk) 20:49, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

  • Sorry, not my area of expertise by any stretch, and I was very tight for time over the last few days in any case. That 5x target seems quite steep! BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:28, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
No worries Bastun! Apart from local smaller museums, these are the ones that have issues, and the associated people who are missing
I expanded National Museum of Ireland – Decorative Arts and History from 2899 characters to 9770 on Saturday, so if I can get it to 15000 in the next few days, then I can submit it for a DYK. I haven't mentioned the Easter Week collection, their contemporary collections (like for the two big referendums) or Michael Collins' slippers yet, so I'm not worried about finding material :) might be creeping up on GA at that point too? Smirkybec (talk) 22:23, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
I managed to expand National Museum of Ireland – Decorative Arts and History 5-fold, which means its now eligible for a DYK. Would anyone (SeoR, Ceoil?) mind taking a look to see what you think? I'm not sure what a hook would be - perhaps something about Collins' slippers, or the rapid response/contemporary collecting? Casting an eye over the article rating as well would be greatly appreciated! Thanks :) Smirkybec (talk) 22:23, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Happy to take a look. And having looked, I'd say it has come along very nicely - and only clearly needs a more comprehensive lede before DYK. For GA, I think something needs to be said about the period 1889 to 1988, and a little bit more about the permanent collection, probably a few words about Daingean, and a little about each of leadership and staffing / operations and funding / visitorship and any critiques. And maybe just a tiny bit more illustration. I will comment further tomorrow - it's late, and MoLI is second in the DYK on the home page. SeoR (talk) 00:25, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
Thanks so much! I'm a bit stumped at the moment on resources on that period (1899-1988) - I could pull some of the details of the former display of the Easter Week and Bender collections up into the history. There isn't a comprehensive history of the NMI written, everything focuses on the history of the Barracks rather than the collection/division, and I haven't found much that talks about these details and the staff. There are still some traces of the former exhibition spaces in Kildare Street like the Ceramics Room (most sources now talk about the Seanad moving in there, with no reference as to why it is called that). I know that most of the Divisions had collections stored in Daingean, but the only sources I have found only talk about Folklife. There isn't much by way of images, it is pretty small Commons category - it's strange how overlooked it is generally speaking. I'm also terrible at writing ledes :D Smirkybec (talk) 10:07, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
SeoR I managed to scrap together a bit of content for the 20th century, but there isn't a whole lot to draw from. I couldn't find anything that directly referenced art and industry collections in Daingean. Can you think of a good hook to throw it into DYK? (I think we only have until 24 May to nominate it before its too old, if it worth a nomination, honestly I'm happy to have managed to expand it this much!). Ceoil would you consider re-rating it? Thanks so much! Smirkybec (talk) 21:19, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Smirkybec Sounds great, will pop over and look - I'm very interested to see what you found. It is odd indeed that there is no official NMI history. I will then try to suggest a hook or two. Sorry for delayed reply, after MoLI I was checking other museums, noticed a gap (the Ledwidge Museum up in Slane), and then found the poet's article, with multiple issues, including some PROMO'd sections, and then RL intervened. Will definitely come back on this tonight. SeoR (talk) 14:27, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
Thanks so much - I really appreciate it! You're as bad as me, falling down all sorts of rabbit holes. Well done again on MoLi! I tweeted at them on the day and they were very pleased! Smirkybec (talk) 17:55, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
Yes, that happens. I was actually shocked at the state of the Ledwidge piece, had to get stuck in at once - and ironically, there was not only no article on his museum, it wasn't even given a line in the poet's article. Nice one re. MoLI, did not see that (I've resisted the Twitter thing so far), and it's been good to see some impact - the 1.5 line piece was running 1-2 views a day, the average (excl. DYK day) is now 50+.
On NMI-DAH, I see 4-5 angles. DYK is a curious art, and sometimes the hooks are very much sidewise to the main thrust of the article. In this case, for example, I suspect #4 might garner a lot of readers, but it underlines a point which is not at all central to the article...
1) ... that a pair of blue slippers with a wolf's head pattern, held by the National Museum of Ireland – Decorative Arts and History, which belonged to Irish revolutionary leader Michael Collins, went viral online in 2021?
2) ... that the National Museum of Ireland – Decorative Arts and History holds a collection of more than 15,000 objects related to the Easter Rising of 1916?
3) ... that the exhibition The Way We Wore at the National Museum of Ireland – Decorative Arts and History displays Irish clothing from a span of 250 years, including work by Sybil Connolly?
4) ... that a major Asian collection was donated to the National Museum of Ireland – Decorative Arts and History by Jewish benefactor Alfred Bender while the musum was headed by Adolf Mahr, head of the Dublin Nazi chapter?
5) ... that the National Museum of Ireland – Decorative Arts and History outbid the Pompidou Centre for a major collection of materials related to Eileen Gray?
Go for it Smirkybec: the article has great potential after the improvment work! SeoR (talk) 18:47, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
Ugg. Has taken a week to get Gallagh Man to DYK, and though nobody cares anymore, its there now. Smirkybec, have re-rated SeoR's expansion; very nice work. Ceoil (talk) 22:40, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
I just put Quiet Man Cottage Museum online but it could do with some more work. ww2censor (talk) 17:32, 15 June 2021 (UTC)


  1. ^ Sutton, Malcolm. "CAIN: Sutton index of deaths - 1977". CAIN Archive - Conflict and Politics in Northern Ireland. Ulster University. Retrieved 2021-06-12. Deering, Douglas (53) Protestant. Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA). Justice of the Peace. Shot at his shop, Rosslea, County Fermanagh.
  2. ^ Sutton, Malcolm. "CAIN: Sutton index of deaths - 1979". CAIN Archive - Conflict and Politics in Northern Ireland. Ulster University. Retrieved 2021-05-22. 15 October 1979. Kernaghan, Herbert (36) Protestant. Status: Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA). Off duty. Shot while making deliveries to school, Rosslea, County Fermanagh.
  3. ^ Niall, Kiely (1979-10-16). "UDR man shot dead at school". The Irish Times.
  4. ^ Sutton, Malcolm. "CAIN: Sutton index of deaths - 1980". CAIN Archive - Conflict and Politics in Northern Ireland. Ulster University. Retrieved 2021-05-22. 23 September 1980. Johnston, Ernest (36) Protestant. Status: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA). Off duty reservist. Shot while driving into the laneway of his home, Lisrace, near Rosslea, County Fermanagh.
  5. ^ "IRA Border unit jailed". The Irish Times. 1982-05-15.
  6. ^ Sutton, Malcolm. "CAIN: Sutton index of deaths - 1986". CAIN Archive - Conflict and Politics in Northern Ireland. Ulster University. Retrieved 2021-05-22. 08 July 1986. McVitty, John (46) Protestant. Status: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA). Off duty. Shot at his farm, Drumady, near Rosslea, County Fermanagh.
  7. ^ Brennock, Mark (1986-07-10). "IRA admits killing RUC man on farm". The Irish Times.
  8. ^ Sutton, Malcolm. "CAIN: Sutton index of deaths - deaths from heart attacks". CAIN Archive - Conflict and Politics in Northern Ireland. Ulster University. Retrieved 2021-05-22. 29 October 1988. Mary Rooney (81) Catholic. Status: Civilian (Civ). Shortly after evacuation of her home, during Irish Republican Army (IRA) mortar bomb attack on the nearby Rosslea Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) base, County Fermanagh.
  9. ^ Cowley, Martin (1988-11-01). "Elderly woman dies after mortar attack on station". The Irish Times.
  10. ^ Sutton, Malcolm. "CAIN: Sutton index of deaths - 1994". CAIN Archive - Conflict and Politics in Northern Ireland. Ulster University. Retrieved 2021-05-22. 17 July 1994. Moreland, Caroline (34) Catholic. Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA). Found shot, Clogh, near Rosslea, County Fermanagh. Alleged informer.
  11. ^ Breen, Suzanne (1994-07-21). "400 attend NI woman's funeral". The Irish Times.
  12. ^ Siggins, Lorna (1994-07-30). "Cardinal describes IRA's armed campaign as sinful". The Irish Times.


There is a move discussion at Talk:Letterkenny (disambiguation) that may be of interest to this WikiProject. Declangi (talk) 01:35, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Seamus Heaney[edit]

Eyes needed here. Page has been blanked pending a copyright investigation; may potentially be deleting, requiring a rewrite from scratch. Ceoil (talk) 18:14, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

This seems crazy, without any advance notice or discussion. The article has been around a long time, and is a well-read one, and much-edited. Is this part of some broader study? SeoR (talk) 15:43, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Seamus Heaney has been blanked for copyright reasons[edit]

- see Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2021 May 27 Johnbod (talk) 03:06, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Merger proposal[edit]


Received request to merge the Connolly Column article into the Irish socialist volunteers in the Spanish Civil War article on 13 May 2021. Discuss it >>>HERE<<<. Input welcome. Thank you, GenQuest "scribble" 14:21, 31 May 2021 (UTC)


There is a move discussion at Talk:Listowel that may be of interest to this WikiProject. Declangi (talk) 21:28, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Who has a drone camera?[edit]

Does anyone around Dublin have a drone with which they can photograph the restored Second World War EIRE sign on the Hawk Cliff in Dalkey made to warn aircraft they were about the enter the neutral state. It will be great for The Emergency (Ireland) article. See this Irish Times article. ww2censor (talk) 17:41, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Upload request for article Great Famine[edit]

Hello, every user from the Irish project. I am User:波斯波莉斯, a Chinese Wikipedian. And I currently want to upload these two or three pictures [1]&[2] to this article's section "Emigration". They are essential to the entry. But I don't know whether they belong to the public domain. I am also not familiar with Wikicommon's criteria for uploading. Please help me to work it out. Thanks for your assistance.--波斯波莉斯 (talk) 12:36, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

波斯波莉斯: Both these images are in the public domain and being noted as US Government works should be licensed as {{PD-USGov}} even thought {{PD-US-expired}} also applies and uploaded to the commons, not here. In the notes there is mention of a raster image being available though I don't see a link to them. These would be a better format for such maps if you can find them. ww2censor (talk) 14:21, 16 June 2021 (UTC)