User talk:Bullmoosebell
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2011 WikiProject Film coordinator election[edit]Voting for WikiProject Film's October 2011 project coordinator election has started. We are aiming to select five coordinators to serve for the next year; please take a moment from editing to vote here by October 29! Erik (talk | contribs) 11:56, 15 October 2011 (UTC) The Bugle: Issue LXVII, September 2011[edit]
To receive this newsletter on your talk page, join the project or sign up here. If you are a member who does not want delivery, please go to this page. EdwardsBot (talk) 01:56, 27 October 2011 (UTC) WP:FILM October 2011 Newsletter[edit]The October 2011 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. —Erik (talk | contribs) 15:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC) The Bugle: Issue LXVIII, October 2011[edit]
To receive this newsletter on your talk page, join the project or sign up here. If you are a member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. EdwardsBot (talk) 07:55, 28 November 2011 (UTC) WikiProject Film November 2011 Newsletter[edit]The April 2011 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. —Peppage (talk | contribs) 22:36, 5 December 2011 (UTC) Thank You for the Welcome[edit]I appreciate your time in offering mentorship to me as a new Wikipedian. Thank you for your suggestions. Regarding my analysis of themes for In the Valley of Elah, I very much disagree with you on several points. First, citing other movie reviews that do not cover themes in as detailed a manner is not an argument for excluding them here. There simply may not have been anyone willing or able to do the analysis for those films. I stand by my assertion that if it's appropriate to allude to themes, it's appropriate to elaborate on them. Also, many summaries of books on Wikipedia explore themes and I am doing the same here with respect to the narrative medium of film. Second, I do not agree with you that this film depicts "the death of a soldier and his father's tireless effort to solve the mystery (runaway AWOL soldier, suicide, or murder), not PTSD." In fact, with respect, I believe the exact opposite. I believe the screenwriter fictionalized this true story for the very reason of having a narrative device to shed light, through various vignettes and sub-plots, on the symptoms of PTSD, cultural masculinity and controversial expressions of patriotism. That is how film works. There is a literal story that serves to illustrate the message behind it, which is sometimes polemic. Which brings me to my third point: It is not my analysis that has intended or subtle motives, it is the film that has them. My analysis of these themes is pure Film Studies 101, showing how a writer can use narrative to convey themes, albeit controversial and emotional for many viewers. Such analysis is absolutely appropriate and relevant to a discussion of the film as a work of art. I truly believe this film is a brilliant example of how to convey themes through fictionalized narrative and should be recognized as such. Perhaps you believe I have cherry-picked plot devices to grind an ax. Not so. In fact, the exact opposite is the case. The screenwriter's examination of the range and variety of symptoms was so subtle that I believe it helps the Wikipedia community to have those connections made for readers who are not familiar with PTSD or critiques of masculinity and may not realize that the characters' actions and motivations were PTSD related or connected to concepts of masculinity. In fact, most readers may not have the perception to recognize these threads running through this film. That is what Wikipedia is for. Those who have expertise on a subject (like film narrative analysis or combat PTSD) write articles to educate those who don't. Finally, I disagree with your comment that the true story itself is the proper place for this content. I am commenting on how this particular script deftly portrayed a range of PTSD symptoms, which may or may not have been present in the original true story. Again, with respect, I truly believe your characterizations of "emotion" or "motive" on my part are more a reflection of a bias in interpreting my analysis due to the potentially inflammatory nature of the film's themes and it's close relation to actual events. While it is clear that we are allies in our commitment to these issues, I think you have wrongly judged the appropriateness of this content in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amyluna13 (talk • contribs) 12:56, 11 December 2011 (UTC) PTSD (Perpetuating This Stimulating Discourse) ;)[edit]Dear Bluemoosebell, Thank you again for your time and assistance in helping sort out my proposed edit for this article. It is a pleasure to communicate with an informed and thoughtful intellect such as yours. I would like to address some points in your last message to me. "Hank Deerfield is trying to find his son & his killers. As it states, the film "explores" themes of PTSD, the GWOT, prisoner abuse, et cetera. Those are not the main plot." I agree. Which is why my edit would not be in the article's "plot" section, it would in the article's "themes" section. From the wiki Manual of Style for Film articles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Films/Style_guidelines#Themes "Themes Themes are unifying or dominant ideas and motifs in a film's elements (such as plot, dialogue, photography, and sound) conveying a position or message about life, society, and human nature. Most themes are implied rather than explicitly stated, regardless of whether their presence is the conscious intent of the producer, writer, or director. Inclusion of a treatment of a film's themes – well-sourced and cited to avoid original research – is encouraged since an article's value to a reader and its real-world context will be enhanced. A separate section is not required if it is more appropriate to place the material in the Production or Reception sections." (emphasis mine) You provided me with a link to the book, All Quiet on the Western Front. In that article, it states (under the "Themes" section) "One of the major themes of the novel is the difficulty of soldiers to revert to civilian life after having experienced extreme combat situations. Remarque comments in the preface that "[All Quiet on the Western Front] will try simply to tell of a generation of men who, even though they may have escaped shells, were destroyed by the war." This internal destruction can be found as early as the first chapter as Paul comments that, although all the boys are young, their youth has left them. When on leave from the front, Paul feels strongly isolated from his family and removed from daily life. Another topic concerns how soldiers' lives are put at risk by their commanding officers who seem unaware of the trauma of their charges. " (emphasis mine) This is identical in style and content to what I am proposing to do, just in more detail, which should be a welcomed! "Don't get me wrong, as a combat veteran diagnosed with PTSD," On a related note, I read on your personal page about the "Baker Boys" documentary and watched all of it yesterday. I am currently researching and writing a book which is partially on how our cultural concepts of masculinity are shifting, allowing us to break cycles of generationally perpetuated trauma and there was excellent material in there. I found it very compelling how insightful, aware and open many of the men were about their personal internal process and seeking help without shame, while others clearly were not. I think this variance among the men's stories illustrates the exact shift occurring today that I am documenting through my book. So, thank you for that referral. I would also like to familiarize you with the lifelong work of Dr. Peter Levine on healing trauma through body awareness and somatic release... http://www.amazon.com/Unspoken-Voice-Releases-Restores-Goodness/dp/1556439431/ref=pd_sim_b_2 His work has influenced the growing number of somatic healing modalities like clarity breathwork, tapping and biofeedback devices such as the emWave PSR developed by the HeartMath Institute http://www.heartmath.org/about-us/our-focus/soldiers-veterans-military-families.html Perhaps you are already aware of these resources, but in case you aren't, I wanted to mention them. Levine studied how animals are able to so effectively release trauma and not retain the effects and applied that to human biology. Research suggests that these body-centered approaches to releasing trauma work well and can be much more effective and accelerated than traditional psychological "talk" therapy (which may actually re-traumatize the neural net) and/or medications (which serve to suppress the trauma, not release it). "Take a look at the articles of other movies with subtle undertones (PTSD or otherwise), Song of the South, All Quiet on the Western Front, Glengarry Glen Ross." As I stated previously, it is a fallacy of causality to point to an effect as proof of a cause. You are implying that these articles don't have a themes section because it is not appropriate. There could be many reasons why the articles you cite don't have a themes section. Wikipedia articles are not always consistent and these articles may not have extensive "themes" sections because no one wrote them, not because they are irrelevant or inappropriate. Pointing to an effect is not proof of its cause, so it carries no weight with regard to the question at hand. "I understand the importance of educating the masses." I'm not trying to educate the masses on PTSD. I'm trying to educate the masses on how this film's fictional narrative elements brilliantly illustrate the symptoms of PTSD. The script is an excellent example of world class writing in that respect. If a film's narrative brilliantly and cleverly highlighted different species of flowers and I elaborated on that using detail from the script, I'm guessing that probably wouldn't be perceived as "emotional" content having an "agenda." Sometimes, emotion and agenda are in the eye of the beholder. "With that said, Do not feel I am simply dismissing the subject." I do not feel that at all. I can tell your intentions are honorable. :) I understand your argument is about the appropriateness of this subject in this context, not the appropriateness of the subject in general. In fact, knowing that you are probably personally invested in disseminating PTSD information, I admire your impartiality in arguing against including it on principle. Very impressive. "If you so choose to pursue this, feel free to join the Film WikiProject and speak your case there." Again, thank you for your mentorship of the Wikipedia ropes and your suggestions, which I will pursue. "Lastly, do not bring abrasive comments such as you've posted previously, "But, with all due respect, if these issues were obvious to those who serve, this tragedy might never have occurred in the first place." Just because you state "with all due respect," does not mean your comments are not disrespectful. That sort of conduct will not get you very far, on Wikipedia or life. Your comment was purely hypothetical and, without having served in combat yourself, you should guard against making such comments." I couldn't agree more that prefacing an abrasive comment with a disclaimer does not negate that the comment is abrasive! However, we can often misinterpret meaning and intent through the medium of writing (with no body language and tone), so please allow me to explain my comment, which was logical, not hypothetical. You made the statement "Be it known that I am in Baker Company TF 1-15 IN (the unit in which the movie is based upon), so do not presume that I don't understand the situation that piqued the interest of the producers & directors to create this movie." From the point of view of logic, you seemed to be making the argument, "I was part of A (Baker Company), so I know about B (PTSD issues)." I was refuting that on logic (back to the subject of causality), saying "One can be part of A and not know about B," or that "being a part of A does not cause a 'knowing' about B." In addition, I found it not only fallacious but a particularly ironic argument for you to make, given the tragedy that occurred. Because I knew it was a sensitive subject, I prefaced my critique with the "due respect" comment, meant sincerely and not sarcastically, as you may have heard it. But it was a refutation of the logic in your argument, not a comment on you personally or your character. And saying "being a part of A does not cause a knowing about B" isn't the same as saying "no one in A knows about B." It just says that "being in A doesn't cause knowing about B." Whether I have personally served in combat or not is irrelevant to the validity of my assertion, based in logic. With the most compassionate of intention, may I suggest that hearing logical refutations as personal attacks (and personally attacking back) is a sign of hyper-vigilance. I once read a definition of hyper-vigilance that has been very helpful to me -- "Hearing good faith repair attempts as hostile manipulations." Again, sometimes (often?) abrasion is in the eye of the hyper-vilgilant, lol. I am guessing that clarity and respect are important values to you, which I admire. They are also important to me. :) So I am compelled to point out that comments like, "without having served in combat yourself" (which you may suspect, but have no way of knowing--and even if I haven't, you don't know what other systemic or violent trauma I may have been exposed to) and "you won't get far in life" are personal and, as such, weaken the strength of your observation, which I do believe had the best of intentions. It's hard for people to hear constructive criticism if you bookend your critique with personal attacks, since that causes one's reptilian/ego defenses to kick in making it next to impossible to be open to changing one's behavior. I've found I get pretty far whenever I make sure not to do that. :) I'm juss sayin'. Who's the pot and who's the kettle, hmmmm?..... I'm not trying to "win" here, just increase consciousness for both of us. So I guess what I'm saying is I'm trying to "win/win," lol. And I'm dying to know... What in the Sam Hill has "Tar baby, Katczinsky, and The Machine?" got to do with it? Amyluna13 (talk) 00:49, 13 December 2011 (UTC) Oh...[edit]Sorry, from your demonstration of edit power, I thought you were the person to convince. Still learning. :) Roger that you do not find my expertise on PTSD and language engaging. Happy Holidays! Amyluna13 (talk) 03:44, 13 December 2011 (UTC) The Sequel[edit]"if these issues were obvious to those who serve..." I want to offer you my full and sincere apology for these words. My intent was to convey that "It's incorrect and dangerous to assume that because someone serves in combat they correctly understand the dynamics of PTSD." For example, in Baker Boys, one of the soldiers is very confident that he will be able to put it all behind him and never talk about Iraq again and we later learn he woke up choking his wife. I realize now that my words were poorly chosen and did not accurately convey my meaning and could very well be construed as meaning "these issues are not obvious to ALL those who serve," which was not what I intended to say or what I believe. I can hear now how my words may have appeared arrogant and would be annoying to hear from a non-military source. It is a profound subject and considering who I was talking to, I should have been more careful with my words. Mea culpa. :) From Johnathan Shay's work in Odysseus in America, I get how and why those who serve have little patience with uninformed commentary from non-military sources. He devotes a whole chapter to it. Didn't mean to add more fuel to that rodeo fire either, cowboy. ;) From talking to other editors, I now understand how my edits were original content and that you were correct in removing them. Thanks for your gravitas in dealing with a newbie. :) From my cursory research so far, I've found there is ample scholarly commentary connecting this film to all the themes I raised, so I will be reworking my edits to reflect those outside, independent sources. I hope you will look over my edits when I finish them before I post them! I do plan on creating a professional page when I have time. Thanks for the offer to help. Since you shared your personal history which connects you to this film, allow me to share mine. Imagine the excitement and hope of a woman deeply in love waiting to pick up her fiance from the airport who was finally flying home after being discharged from the Marines the day before after two tours of duty in Iraq. But he is not on the flight. Her fear and confusion grow as she waits and waits for one flight after another, but he never shows. She then learns he's in jail on four felony counts (which due to California's "three strikes rule" qualifies you for life with no parole) after defending himself by firing two warning shots into the front lawn of his house the night before as he was being attacked with a knife by a close friend after both were drinking heavily, celebrating his discharge. That's my story. Thanks for the Barnyard Star. Made my day. :) Amyluna13 (talk) 23:02, 13 December 2011 (UTC) Kitten Guy[edit]Re-read your last post. Point taken. I understand well how many cry wolf about having PTSD to excuse any bad behavior. That's why the DA had little sympathy for my fiance's claim of PTSD, even though he had been in a PTSD support group on base for a year before this incident. Sorry you felt misrepresented by the documentary. Must have felt like adding insult to injury. Ouch. Amyluna13 (talk) 00:08, 14 December 2011 (UTC) The Jungle Within[edit]An old Grandfather said to his grandson, who came to him with anger at a friend who had done him an injustice, "Let me tell you a story. I too, at times, have felt a great hate for those that have taken so much, with no sorrow for what they do. But hate wears you down, and does not hurt your enemy. It is like taking poison and wishing your enemy would die. I have struggled with these feelings many times." He continued, "It is as if there are two wolves inside me. One is good and does no harm. He lives in harmony with all around him, and does not take offense when no offense was intended. He will only fight when it is right to do so, and in the right way. But the other wolf, ah! He is full of anger. The littlest thing will set him into a fit of temper. He fights everyone, all the time, for no reason. He cannot think because his anger and hate are so great. It is helpless anger, for his anger will change nothing. Sometimes, it is hard to live with these two wolves inside me, for both of them try to dominate my spirit." The boy looked intently into his Grandfather's eyes and asked, "Which one wins, Grandfather?" The Grandfather smiled and quietly said, "The one I feed." - Cherokee Legend Happy Trails, Bluemoosebell :) Amyluna13 (talk) 08:11, 14 December 2011 (UTC) Searcher 1990[edit]No prob, brother. Happy Holidays. :-) Nightscream (talk) 12:56, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Opt-Out[edit]Edits re Mussey, Hill[edit]Bullmoosebell: Thank you for explanation. Please let me express my sincere gratitude to you for your military service. I have been associated with a Korean War veterans group, not that I deserve to stand in their shadow, but simply as a friend. My admiration for these old gentlemen is unbounded. To be able to sit with them and have them calmly tell you about the Chosin Reservoir is something everyone should experience. I extend that admiration to those such as you who have served more recently. You are the last type of person that I would want to have a disagreement or contentious exchange with. I concentrate on Civil War articles although I have edited and even created a few articles on other historical subjects. I had noted the edits being made by an editor just blocked again tonight and have been checking the Civil War articles he edited for problems or lack of citations, whether caused by him, or as was mostly the case, by an earlier editor. These were sometimes omissions rather than outright errors. I have had to work rather hard just to keep up the pace. Some of these articles need more work but I felt I had time to only change some obvious mistakes or add some important missing fact. That is how we happened to coincide on some of the same articles. Of course, since I have been participating in good faith and trying to cite good sources for edits, I was unhappy that it appeared I was being lumped into the same category as the editor just mentioned. In any event, I think the Eicher book is the best source unless it contains an obvious error or typo or the weight of other evidence is against it. I have put some information on the book on Nightscream's page and will complete doing the same on Reuben Mussey's page. Then we can proceed as need be. I would not mind putting a footnote in about the web site page but I would still rely on Eicher as the last word. You are correct that each edit must stand on its own. I admit that my reference in the summary to the dates of service for Hill was not clear enough to identify where the information came from within Wikipedia. I did not cite the two lists in the article because we are not supposed to cite Wikipedia articles as sources. I guess I was in too much of a hurry to look for the source within the articles. I used this shortcut in the first place because Hill was not a high enough grade officer during the Civil War to be listed in Eichers books or a few of the others that I commonly use for sources. I will look into this further. The articles from which the information was derived are List of brigadier generals in the United States Regular Army before February 2, 1901 and List of major generals in the United States Regular Army before 1 July 1920. You can see why I might want to have abbreviated the titles but you are correct that this made them unidentifiable. I am sorry to have taken up your time because of a few carelessly abbreviated edits or edits or references that might have been too vague. Maybe most people need a reminder every once in a while to stay sharp. Donner60 (talk) 06:48, 22 December 2011 (UTC) The Bugle: Issue LXIX, November 2011[edit]
The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign here. Recurring Topic[edit]I will mention it to the person previously involved, who I think is identified on the talk page. I simply will note what I see and suggest the person draw his/her own conclusion. Donner60 (talk) 01:44, 28 December 2011 (UTC) Good work on the warnings. I went ahead with a new article first. It is appropriate to give the warnings and see if there is a response first. I think administrators expect that. I am glad you did that and I did not put the cart before the horse, to use an apt cliche. Donner60 (talk) 08:19, 28 December 2011 (UTC) Thanks for your message. It appears to me that "Boing! said Zebedee" was the administrator who ultimately put on the long block. As I noted, there is a failure to follow policy and to abide by the block but the user is apparently not an outright vandal. That seems to have gained him some sympathy (if that is the right word). Donner60 (talk) 07:05, 29 December 2011 (UTC) Thanks for barnstar[edit]Thanks for the barnstar of defense. I am gratified that it comes from you. I try to revert vandalism and correct errors when I see them but I am usually looking at only a small range of articles. On the substantive side, I work mostly on military history and biography articles, as you know. I have bogged down from time to time but I suppose anyone who does research and writing is likely to have such periods of time. Civil War research turns up errors or inconsistencies or contradictions in many sources so it is sometimes easy to be misled or get something wrong while in good faith. We can only do our best to rely on what seem to be the best sources. Some errors become obvious after some research. I just have discovered that an editor, no doubt in good faith, added facts pertaining to William Wells to an article on John Michael Tobin. It took a little research but I was sure Tobin was not a full or brevet general and now have the sources to show the mistake. As I noted, Alexander Hamilton was not a Civil War general either but that will take a little more explanation because of the history of the article. I am probably going on too long already, so I will end it by saying thanks again. Donner60 (talk) 08:04, 29 December 2011 (UTC) William J. Carson[edit]The article looks rather comprehensive but perhaps some more information on Carson exists - and can be found in books I have or online. I will look for it. Even if a source mostly repeats information in the article, it could add useful information to the article by being added to the references. I like the first hand accounts or testimonials because they give some life to him. It's amazing that he survived the prison camp experience. My only immediate suggestions would be to change a few of the sentences in the opening paragraphs which are stated in the present tense to the past tense. I would eliminate the "comrade" in those paragraphs as well. I realize that is how the veterans addressed each other but it sounds a little strange to me except when it is in the obvious direct quotations. I think it comes down to another variation of the present/past tense statements. I can make those minor changes in the next day or two unless you wish to do it. I hope I can find some more about Carson quickly as well. I find that in many cases I either find the information within about an hour or less or spend three or four hours and come away with little if anything more than I came up with quickly. By the way, I am not sure whether I have mentioned it, but my father was a medic in the 20th Army Air Force in World War II. Donner60 (talk) 08:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
WikiProject Film December 2011 Newsletter[edit]The December 2011 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. —Peppage (talk | contribs) 22:02, 4 January 2012 (UTC) San Francisco meetup at WMF headquarters[edit]Hi Bullmoosebell, I just wanted to give you a heads-up about the next wiki-meetup happening in SF. It'll be located at our very own Wikimedia Foundation offices, and we'd love it if some local editors who are new to the meetup scene came and got some free lunch with us :) Please sign up on the meetup page if you're interested in attending, and I hope to see you soon! Maryana (WMF) (talk) 19:06, 9 January 2012 (UTC) Military Historian of the Year[edit]Nominations for the "Military Historian of the Year" for 2011 are now open. If you would like to nominate an editor for this award, please do so here. Voting will open on 22 January and run for seven days. Thanks! On behalf of the coordinators, Nick-D (talk) and Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 22:46, 15 January 2012 (UTC) You were sent this message because you are a listed as a member of the Military history WikiProject. You should add[edit]http://www.wartimepress.com/WWII-Archives/images/281/Fort%20Benning%20-%20A%20Camera%20Trip%20Through%20Fort%20Benning.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.138.74.36 (talk) 19:02, 19 January 2012 (UTC) The Bugle: Issue LXX, January 2012[edit]
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The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here. WikiProject Film's January–February Newsletter[edit]The January 2012 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. To unsubscribe, please remove your name from the distribution list. GRAPPLE X 00:36, 4 March 2012 (UTC) MOTDs (This space for rent)[edit]You may have noticed over the past few days that the MOTD that you link to on your user page has simply displayed a red link. This is due to the fact that not enough people are reviewing pending MOTDs here. Please help us keep the MOTD template alive and simply go and review a few of the MOTDs in the list. That way we can have a real MOTD in the future rather than re-using (This space for rent). Any help would be appreciated! –pjoef (talk • contribs) 18:54, 6 March 2012 (UTC) GOCE March drive newsletter[edit]
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The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here. Atlanta Wiknic Sat June 30[edit]Be there as detailed at Wikipedia:Meetup/Atlanta/Atlanta 3, or be unencyclopedic!--Pharos (talk) 19:55, 28 June 2012 (UTC) GOCE July 2012 mid-drive newsletter[edit]
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The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here. Service stars/Campaign stars[edit]Hello, Bullmoosebell! I want you to have a look at the following photo, please: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Stevens_2012_1.jpg Now look at the stars on the Good Conduct Medal ribbon, and then have a look at the two stars on the Southwest Asia Service Medal ribbon right below. While the first ones seem about half the height of the ribbon, the second ones seem like a third of the ribbon's height. Could service stars and campaign stars indeed be different (at least, in some instances)? Thank you very much in case you will be able to give me answer on MY talk page, greetings! claudevsq (talk) 18:50, 19 August 2012 (UTC) GOCE news and September drive invitation[edit]
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Informing you of a PROD[edit]Hi there, I saw that you were one of the users who contributed most to the Matthew Axelson article so I thought I would just let you know that it was PROD'd today by Beingsshepherd (talk · contribs) and it will be deleted after 5 March 2013 if left uncontested. Regards, — -dainomite 18:43, 26 February 2013 (UTC) The Bugle: Issue LXXXIII, February 2013[edit]
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Courtesy notice[edit]This is a courtesy notice. A conversation is happening at WikiProject Military history regarding disruptive edits to Audie Murphy. You are receiving this notice because your name has been listed in the article's history as having reverted some of the troublesome edits. — Maile (talk) 17:53, 20 March 2013 (UTC) The Bugle: Issue LXXXIV, March 2013[edit]
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