User talk:Jeanambr

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Hi and thanks for the new article you've created (Giacomo David) and the others which have you have expanded. I notice you've also done some page moves of established articles (Manuel del Pópulo Vicente García, Manuel Patricio Rodríguez García, Poliuto, and Tenor altino). These have been reverted as they do not conform to the naming practices used by WikiProject Opera. If you have any questions about this don't hestitate to contact us on the project's talk page. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 18:44, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,

I'm very curious whether the term "baritono-martin" is used much in Italian. All the best, Sparafucil (talk) 03:18, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Premised that my musical culture has no specialist characters at all, but exclusively amateurish ones, since it results only from 25 years’ reading of an opera fan, I must confess that I don’t recall ever meeting with the phrase “baritono Martin”, and I can undoubtedly say that it’s not very much used in Italy.

In Caruselli’s Grande Enciclopedia della Musica Lirica, which is, anyhow, but a work with a mainly popularizing aim, the phrase is not even cited in the whole 3-page-long article “baritono”, which yet tells, in the French operatic scene of the Romanticism, as many as 4 general kinds of “barytons”: 1. b. Verdi, high and quivering (e. g. Jules Devoyod); 2. b. grand-opéra (e. g. Jean Lassalle); 3. b. lyrique, clear and light (e.g. Emile-Alexandre Taskin); 4. b. d’opéra comique or brilliant (e.g. Lucien Furgère). Only the very article “Martin, Jean-Blaise” ends this way: “His voice was itself phenomenal, ranging over three octaves, which allowed him to pass, without any solution of continuity, from the tenor register to the baritone one … These vocal qualities gave rise, for a certain period, to the denomination of a new way of singing called of «baritono Martin»”. That’s all I was able to find.

According to the above description, in fact, the baritone Martin reminds me, more than what we’ll call “baritenore”, Martin’s contemporary mezzo-sopranos as Giuditta Pasta, Isabella Colbran and Maria Malibran, who, owing to their exceptional extension, were able to sing, besides mezzo-soprano/contralto roles, real soprano parts which are nowadays substantially reserved to this register of voice and which, anyway, modern mezzo-sopranos very seldom dare to confront.

Con simpatia.Jeanambr (talk) 22:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello.

• Are you planning to create articles for any of the rather obscure operas called Zaira which were written by Caldara, Mercadante or Peter Winter? If not, what is the purpose of moving Zaira (opera) to Zaira (Bellini)?
• Furthermore, if you are going to make alterations like this, can you also please change the title of the opera in the Bellini operas navigation template Template:Bellini operas so that it appears in bold on the Zaira page - have a look at the navigation box at I puritani if you can't work out what I'm talking about. Best. --GuillaumeTell 22:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reply:

If you think it more expedient, I hope you will be so kind as to revert my move of Zaira yourself and to correct the Bellini operas navigation template back again, as well.

As to the rather obscure operas of the 17th and 18th centuries, I sincerely do hope that, sooner or later, as many of them as possible may be brought again to the light they very often are worthy of (surely as worthy as Bellini's phantasmal Zaira). All the best. Jeanambr (talk) 17:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Jeanambr, I realize that you made the page move in good faith, but it was contrary to the Opera Project Guidelines for article naming. See [1]. Secondly, you summarily moved a long-established page with no prior discussion whatsoever on its talk page. Plus, moving pages with navigation templates on them back and forth creates more work for other editors. All pages on the template had to be refreshed to show the new location and now they will probably have to be again if your page move is reverted. There is a discussion about these issues on OP talk page here. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 10:54, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Jean. Thank you for your email. I thought I'd reply here to make it easier to give you links etc.

There has been some discussion recently about linking in tables. Basically, tables are not considered part of the article so if Mozart is linked in the article and re-appears in the table it is re-linked. It's actually a bit more complicated than that. If you are interested you can look at MOS:LINKS where it say "A link that had last appeared much earlier in the article may be repeated, but generally not in the same section. . . ." See also here [2].

Another thing: links should normally go direct to an article, not to a redirect. Best regards. --Kleinzach 00:13, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I've just sent you an e-mail which I think will sort out any remaining confusion about the "Retirement" section of this article.--voxclamans (talk) 06:47, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I see you have been changing the role list - for example removing the full name for La Tour – and I'm wondering what source you are using. (The names I put there were from Amadeus which is included in the references). Thanks. --Kleinzach 07:49, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Jean. I am seeing art. in references that you have given. What does this mean? Thanks. --Kleinzach 07:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I hoped it might mean "article": if it does not, can you tell me how to correctly write? Many thanks.--Jeanambr (talk) 07:51, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. You mean article within the book? Unfortunately I don't think that abbreviation is much used. This is the way I cite Grove:

• Clinkscale, Martha Novak (1992), 'Erismena' in The New Grove Dictionary of Opera, ed. Stanley Sadie (London) ISBN 0-333-73432-7

In this case I'd recommend:

• Pitou, Spire (1983), 'Les Saisons' in The Paris Opéra. An Encyclopedia of Operas, Ballets, Composers, and Performers – Genesis and Glory, 1715-1815, pp. 308-9. Greenwood Press, Westport/London, 1983 (ISBN 0-313-21420-4), or

• Pitou, Spire (1983), 'Les Saisons' in op. cit., pp. 308-9.

Of course you can ask other people for their opinions. Best. --Kleinzach 09:05, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note to say that Tragédie lyrique, Drame lyrique, Opéra-tragédie, Tragédie-opéra etc can all be linked in the usual way. (There is a special section link enabled on the target article). Best. --Kleinzach 03:43, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If we want to be dead precise, there exists also the phrase drame héroïque which results to have been used for Gluck's Armide. Sorry! Jeanambr (talk) 10:45, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm rather busy this weekend but let me come back to you next week with various points about these French genres. Meanwhile are you familiar with Category:Lists of operas by composer? These lists contain a lot of relevant material - but it's very complicated. --Kleinzach 12:55, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please, don't worry: I am in no hurry! Best. --Jeanambr (talk) 17:30, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've split the article as suggested. My apologies to you for getting the performance history of the 1757 Anacréon wrong. It was originally part of Les surprises de l'Amour; only later did it take on a separate existence. Anyway I hope the new solution is acceptable. I just have a few links to fix and it should be all right. Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 12:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much! Best. --Jeanambr (talk) 14:10, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved the page from your sandbox to List of French haute-contre roles (I chose this title on the model of "List of Italian tenor roles" etc.). There are still a few minor things which need fixing but now it's an article everybody can contribute. The edit history has also been preserved. If you don't like the move, I can always change it back for the time being. Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 11:18, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's all very fine, thank you!--Jeanambr (talk) 23:16, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

She apparently sang Dorabella at the Fujiwara Opera in Tokyo in 1980, I wasn't able to find anything about Octavian, it's just listed as one of her roles. Best --Marleau (talk) 12:22, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for catching that. I just typed the wrong year is all. 1764 was the year he was heard as Orpheus in Dublin.4meter4 (talk) 14:42, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Made the appropriate change. Thank you for the help.4meter4 (talk) 15:00, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think I used the term "operatic work" for its vagueness. I describe it as a comédie-ballet later on in the article, explaining what the term means (the trouble is we don't have a specific article on comédie-ballet - yet). La princesse is basically a spoken play with a lot of operatic and balletic incidental music. We probably need to get that across in the introductory paragraph which - you are right - should contain the term comédie-ballet. Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 14:34, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Update I see you wrote a substantial article on comédie-ballet for Italian Wikipedia. You should definitely think about translating that into English. --Folantin (talk) 16:36, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Updated update I've taken the liberty of doing this myself. Hope you don't mind. Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 17:41, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, thanks for the feedback about my editing of the article. You make good points on my talk page concerning the format; I don't think I've ever thought about what the 22nd century reader would be reading. It's okay to think it, but articles are discouraged to discuss how something is "the greatest of all time" or "one of the greatest in history". Instead, use facts to back up how celebrated they are; this is epressed by WP:NPOV and WP:Peacock. However, I also have some faulty practices, as I may take these and some other rules into mind and do too much for the sake of those rules, as I kind of did for the page of Albrecht Dürer.

If a certain reviewer is praising the talents of Manuel García, then you can say that the author of the review or book said that. The last paragraph in the artistic features section comes off as not having a neutral point of view to me, and stating that the writer of source eight stated that would be something I'd recommend. Also, the sentence at the end of the biography section needs to have stated who wrote or said that (would that be Mr(s). Radomski?); in its current form, the way it is isolated and entirely in quotations makes it so that the author does of the sentence needs to be elaborated.

With that said, I will have this page on my watchlist. Thanks for the correspondence and the interest in the article.

Cheers,

Backtable _{Speak to me}^{concerning my deeds.} 05:54, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, and sorry for the late response. You can go ahead and post your opinions on the talk page. Additional opinions on this matter would be nice. Good job on the sources, by the way. I personally wouldn't use some of the word choices, but for describing someone as "famous", "celebrated", or "most famous", it would probably be convenient to put discussion of it on the talk page. The mentioned words have appeared on the peacock list of words, but I have seen the word "famous" be supported before, and you did say that the rules should be heeded, but with a grain of salt. Backtable _{Speak to me}^{concerning my deeds.} 04:57, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am now proud owner of a TUSC account!--Jeanambr (talk) 18:56, 2 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi

Thanks for adding those references and for fixing those ibid ones :¬)

I have a question though about this one:

"As many as 48 performances were held throughout the season<ref>Morelli lists in detail 51 performances within 28 February 1797 (p. 27)</ref>

Were there really 51 on that one day ? If so then was that in just Italy, in Europe or worldwide ?

Chaosdruid (talk) 18:04, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm very, very sorry, but my English is coming shorter and shorter of my expectation! I hope you can and will revise the whole section of the article, where there is by now too little order. Here are the data I can state. Gli Orazi e i Curiazi had five runs at La Fenice Theatre during the years 1796-1803 with “more than 130” (Lazerevich, p. 718; Del Teatro online), or, precisely, 138 (Morelli, p. 27, who states all the dates from 26 December 1796 to 2 February 1803) performances. Its first run during the Carnival Season 1797 (which lasted from 26 December 1796 to the beginning of 1797 Lent) staged (as I had at first read, wonder where!) “as many as” (= at least? more than?) 48 performances: in fact Morelli states 51 by listing all the dates from the “26-XII-1796” première to the “28-II-1797” last seasonal performance. By writing “within 28 February 1707” I just hoped to mean “within the Fenice season ending on 28 February”.
I have also just removed the last template “cn”: I had to strive a whole night to recollect where I had picked the piece of information up! By now I take much more care to declare my sources straightaway when writing my articles in the Italian Wikipedia! Thank you very much for your help and kindness. --Jeanambr (talk) 10:34, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

your english is fine:¬)

that is an easy fix then:-

"As many as 48 performances were held throughout the season and Morelli lists 51 performances within the first season, including premieres, ending on 28 February 1797"

I will put it in tomorrow if you have not already :¬)

Chaosdruid (talk) 02:11, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if somenthing like this might be plainer:
"As many as 51 performances were held throughout the season^[1] and the opera was later staged in the major European theatres ..."

1. ^ some sources report 48 performances [or, if you use such a phrase in English, "a number of 48"], but Morelli precisely lists 51 dates from the première to 28 February 1797

Please, put in the version you feel the better. Thank you very much, again. --Jeanambr (talk) 09:32, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have provisionally put the second version in. Cheers.--Jeanambr (talk) 00:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The problem there is that using the phrase "some sources" or "some say" will get a ^[who?] tag added as the phrase is not allowed in Wikiworld :¬)

Also a ref is something tangible, a book with the authors name and a page number, a website with the URL and title. You have put a quote in a note as the ref which was the problem in the first place.

I have included the links so you can see what I mean. Wikipedia:Citing_sources and Wikipedia:Embedded citations Chaosdruid (talk) 00:56, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

{{Wikipedia policies and guidelines}}

As I didn’t get to recollect (nor do I still) whence I had drawn the number “48”, I thought that, according to Wikipedia guidelines, I’d better get rid of it, and decided to try and check, date by date, the list given by Morelli. When I did, I had to notice that four dates (27 and 28 February 1797, 21 November 1798 and 2 March 1802) are reported twice. Apart from misprints, since it seems rather unlikely that two performances have taken place on the same day (even if performances were held much more frequently than nowadays and would follow one a day upon the other for weeks), the actual numbers of performances possibly come down to 49 in the first run and 134 in the whole six-year-and-two-month period. Therefore, I suggest the following solutions:
1. 'At least 49 performances were held throughout the season^[1] and the opera was later staged in the major European theatres ...'
2. 'In Venice, for example, the opera had four further runs during the six years following the première^[2] and "more than 130 performances" altogether were staged in the same period.^[3]'

1. ^ indeed, Morelli (p. 27) lists in detail 51 dates from the première to 28 February 1797, but two of them (27 and 28 February) are reported twice
2. ^ Gualerzi, p. 91
3. ^ Lazarevich, p. 718. Indeed Morelli (pp. 27-28) lists precisely 138 dates, but four of them (the two reported above, 21 November 1798 and 2 March 1802) are repeated twice

Lazarevich precisely writes: "In Venice alone it had more than 130 performances in six years".
I have already put in the new versions above and hope you'll be so kind as to properly correct them (or the whole section) if necessary. Apologize for the inconvenience I have caused. Cheers. --Jeanambr (talk) 09:38, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

PLease no inconvenience has been cuased !! I am only too happy to help any editor !

My brother is a tenor and was at La Scala for almost two years so opera is important to me :¬)

My goal is to help you understand how to format the references and hope this helps you so that the quality of the article is better. You have the books and I am trying to help to put in the information you have gathered.

Have you enabled the edit toolbar - in your wikipedia settings (My Preferences > Editing tab) make sure there is a tick in the boxes "Show edit toolbar (requires JavaScript)"and "Enable enhanced editing toolbar".

Next go to the (My Preferences > Gadget tab) and tick "refTools, adds a "cite" button to the editing toolbar for quick and easy addition of commonly used citation templates." This is the most important one as it puts the Wikipedia:RefToolbar_2.0 into the top line of the edit window. It allows a form for filling in references which is easy to use and simplifies the whole process.

Chaosdruid (talk) 11:27, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much, again! --Jeanambr (talk) 08:13, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I've translated your excellent Renaud into English. I hope I haven't done too bad a job. I've omitted some of the more detailed footnotes but may add them at a later date. Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 18:29, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Very good version: rather less tortuous (or more Anglo-Saxon, as we are used to saying in Italian) than mine! I have already edited some minor corrections. You yourself ought to modify the wording "The opera was a great success". Some sources report, inaccurately, it was not a success at all; Lajarte, who is more reliable, writes: "L'ouvrage réussit". Perhaps, something like "The opera was somewhat of (?) a success" or "quite a success" (I can't feel the difference of meaning very well) could be more precise. Ciao. --Jeanambr (talk) 09:59, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll just say "the opera was a success". PS: I'll add some of the footnotes later in the week. The way text appears in Wikipedia's "editing window" (with the main content mixed with the < ref> stuff) made it very hard to disentangle them all. --Folantin (talk) 10:05, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I should be able to cope, but I probably won't get round to them until next weekend. Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 10:26, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I did a very quick translation of the intro to the Orfeo ed Euridice discography (the page is now up and running). It's not perfect but it should be serviceable enough for the time being. Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 19:07, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Seems very fine (as usual)! Many thanks. --Jeanambr (talk) 08:55, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Are you still around on English Wikipedia and still interested in music articles? I've just created a new page on Rodolphe Kreutzer's 1810 opera La mort d'Abel. I'd be grateful if you could cast an eye over it as you are usually more meticulous than me and might note a few errors. I'm thinking particularly of the roles section as I had to infer some of those voice types (I'm guessing the tenors are more likely to be hautes-contres). Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 13:43, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Grazie! --Folantin (talk) 11:14, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to bother you again. Do you still have Spire Pitou? I can only get a snippet view on Google. It appears he confirms the 23 March 1810 date for the premiere and the 17 March 1823 date for the revival. But I'd like to be sure. --Folantin (talk) 13:29, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You'll never bother! Pitou confirms the two dates (Spire Pitou, The Paris Opéra. An Encyclopedia of Operas, Ballets, Composers, and Performers – Rococo and Romantic, 1715-1815, Greenwood Press, Westport/London, 1985, p. 3, ISBN 0-313-24394-8), and so does David Charlton in his article Kreutzer, Rodolphe, in Stanley Sadie (ed.), The New Grove Dictionary of Opera, Grove (Oxford University Press), New York, 1997, II, p. 1049. Ciao.--Jeanambr (talk) 13:43, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I think we've solved the dating problem now. --Folantin (talk) 14:39, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Hi, are you around here nowadays? If so - and if you have the time, of course - would you give a new article I've just written on Gossec's opera Sabinus a look to check for mistakes? I still have a few things I can add but I've mostly finished my work there. Thanks. --Folantin (talk) 18:28, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Jean. I'm way ahead of you :) In fact, I'd already begun to translate your Chimène article yesterday. You can see my work so far here [3]. I've also been working on your Italian biography of Sacchini here [4]. Neither are quite ready yet. One thing I need from you - if you have the time and have the books to hand - is the English originals of some of the quotations (e.g. from Libby in Grove). Also, the French originals of quotations might be helpful so I can work directly from them. Send them via e-mail if possible. Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 09:41, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I can find most of the French stuff on line. I really need the Libby quotation(s) from Grove more than anything. --Folantin (talk) 14:40, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've now launched Chimène (opera). It isn't quite finished and it's still missing the paragraph with the Libby quotations, but now it's in "mainspace" and you can play around with it. Grazie. --Folantin (talk) 15:43, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, thanks. I've more or less finished Chimène (opera) now, although no doubt there are still a few rough edges which need polishing. I'll need your help with quotations for the main Sacchini biography page (although I'm going to paraphrase some of them instead); mainly the section on Sacchini's style, which I have yet to translate properly.

By the way, it appears that there has been a concert performance of at least extracts from Chimène. See this Youtube link [5]. It says the concert was given at Versailles in 2009 by the group Les Nouveaux Caractères (all I know about them is that they are just about to release a recording of Rameau's Les surprises de l'Amour). --Folantin (talk) 08:41, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I've launched the article, minus the style section, which awaits a direct quotation from Grove here [6]. Some references might need adding to the article. The full "Works" section also needs importing. Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 14:32, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"I wish I had been there." Yes. It's quite possible we may see recordings of Chimène and Dardanus in the next few years, given the interest Palazzetto Bru Zane has shown in promoting this era of music. They've already released Rousset's recording of Renaud this year. Next up, as far as I know, are recordings they've sponsored of Gossec's Thésée (conducted by Guy van Waas) and Vogel's La Toison d'or (conducted by Niquet). --Folantin (talk) 15:23, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'll probably toy around with the style of those pages I've translated over the next few weeks or months. Incidentally, there's no hurry with the translation of Sacchini's list of works. I'm way ahead of schedule as I didn't expect to finish translating his biography until the end of October, but I found I had some free time to get it done. I'm also planning to start an article on Arvire et Évélina, just to complete our coverage of Sacchini's French tragedies.

BTW Just out of interest, I looked up about Antoinette Saint-Huberty and Lemoyne's Nephté. It seems she was intended to take the title role but she was ill on the opening night and Maillard replaced her. Whether she sang at future performances, I don't know. By that time, her voice was beginning to go and the Paris Opéra administration were increasingly tired of her and Lemoyne, because they regarded them as insubordinate troublemakers. Incidentally, there's a letter by Dauvergne (I think) where he writes that Lemoyne and Saint-Huberty only like operas whose subject matter is "incest, poison and murders" (!). --Folantin (talk) 09:34, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again. I'll look into the details of the translation later.--Folantin (talk) 13:23, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the list of works. I'll look at it very soon. I'm also working on Arvire et Évélina on one of my user pages.--Folantin (talk) 13:54, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I'm just about ready to "launch" this as an article. All I need to do is to add the information about Lorenzo da Ponte's London version and Sacchini's work's possible influence on Bellini's Norma. Ciao. --Folantin (talk) 14:04, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK. It's here now. I left researching the Norma influence till later. Thanks for your work on it. --Folantin (talk) 14:37, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Da Ponte. You're right. I thought it was unlikely when I was writing it that he was that fluent in English but I was "thrown" by the English title. Re: influence on Norma. "Unless it may refer only to the romantic Celtic setting." That's probably true. I think it was simply some vague influence of Guillard's libretto on Norma rather than Sacchini's music. I can't find too many sources claiming even this much, so I think I'll just leave it. --Folantin (talk) 15:01, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to impose on you too much, but if you get the time over the next few weeks, could you see if Pitou has any more information about this rather obscure composer whose biography I have just compiled. Thanks. --Folantin (talk) 12:00, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Update Nephté, opera by Lemoyne, now has an article, if you're interested. Also, brief biography of Pierre-Joseph Candeille. Ciao. --Folantin (talk) 10:53, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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My plan is to provide articles which are stubs or better for all the French tragic/serious operas from Lully down to 1789. I have about ten or so left to start. Feel free to add anything you like to any of these articles. I might also have a few questions for you later. Thanks. --Folantin (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Role table: Persée (Philidor). --Folantin (talk) 20:28, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Role table: Phèdre (opera) (by Lemoyne, 1786). --Folantin (talk) 15:13, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Role table: Pénélope (Piccinni)

Role table: Électre (opera)

--Folantin (talk) 18:38, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My sources disagree signficantly on the dates of these operas:

• Télèphe (Campra)
• Télégone (Lacoste)
• Jupiter vainqueur des Titans (Colin de Blamont/Bury) - this probably has a more complicated performance history than the article describes

also:

• Adèle de Ponthieu: both operas (La Borde/Berton and Piccinni) have a more complicated performance history than the articles describe (e.g. revisions, altered number of acts)

Any solutions welcome. --Folantin (talk) 15:48, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Télèphe

The situation seems extremely uncertain. According to the orginal libretto and to Pitou (1983), p. 317, the opera was premiered on 23 Novembre, whereas the original printed score states 28 November, followed by Pitou's usual source Théodore de Lajarte, by James R. Anthony (Campra, André, in The New Grove Dictionary of Opera, I, pp, 706-710, and precisely p. 709) and by Le Magazine de l'opéra baroque.
Probably, the opera must have been initially scheduled for 23 November, but later postponed to 28. The difference between libretto and score could be explained by the usual previous publishing of the former and the likely subsequent publishing of the latter. However, Pitou in particular writes: the opera "enjoied 19 performances including its premiere on 23 Novembre 1713; it was dropped after its 24 December 1713 billing". This statement could suggest Pitou's careful study of the matter, even though it would also mean that the opera should have been performed almost every day in the time frame indicated. I'll look over the other questions within some days. Cheers.--Jeanambr (talk) 09:48, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Télégone

All my secondary sources (Pitou, 1985, p. 514, Jérôme de la Gorge, Lacoste, Louis de, in Grove, II, pp. 1074-1075, Le Magazine de l'Opéra Baroque) state 6 November 1725. Pitou writes: "It had little success and was not revived after its first run from 6 November to sometime in December 1725".

Jupiter vainqueur des Titans

Pitou devotes no article to this work which was not given at the Paris Opéra. Le Magazine de l'Opéra Baroque states a performance at Fointainebleau on 11 November, and another at Versailles on 11 Decembre 1745 on the occasion of the marriage between the future Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette of Austria, neither of whom however had been born at that date yet. In 1745 Louis' father the Dauphin of France had got married, but the wedding had already ended by the performance of Rameau's Platée. The original libretto states that the opera was premiered at Versailles on 11 December, followed by Philip Weller (Bury, Bernard de, in Grove, I, pp. 652-653) and Lionel Sawkins (Collin [Colin], de Blamont, François, ibidem, p. 903). I have no further information about this work.

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Four new stub-class opera articles for you to look at if you have the time: Thésée (Gossec), La toison d'or (opera), Démophon by Vogel, Démophoon by Cherubini. Cheers.--Folantin (talk) 12:25, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mike, I have just expanded your article about Marietta Piccolomini basing myself upon the Italian one. Should you feel like taking a look at my edits (my English is not very good), you'd oblige me very much. Cheers.--Jeanambr (talk) 18:40, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't check to see which bits you had added but the English seems fine to me. I know very little about opera. I added Piccolimini because she didn't have an article and it was obvious from the historical accounts that she was very significant in her day. Mike Hayes (talk) 21:59, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much.--Jeanambr (talk) 16:41, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've had a look over it. Good work. I'll check it again some time in the next few days when I've printed off a copy (this always makes checking easier).

By the way, wasn't Daphnis et Alcimadure a fable by La Fontaine?

Cheers,--Folantin (talk) 10:27, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(PS: I was planning to work on Vogel's two operas when I got the time, but I can help you out with Mondonville if you like. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much information I have on him. I've got recordings of a couple of his operas though).

Hi. I'll try to deal with your points tomorrow. Ciao. --Folantin (talk) 16:30, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Thanks for the suggestions. I'll see what I can do about it. Pkeets (talk) 16:28, 22 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Jean, I don't know if you are still active round here but if you have the time and the information could you check the role table for Rameau's Les fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour? Thanks. --Folantin (talk) 17:16, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot. I might have a couple of operas by Charles-Simon Catel to do in the next few weeks. --Folantin (talk) 17:46, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Catel's very early 19th century, the Napoleonic era. Around the same time as Spontini. So he's still quite "18th-century" in many ways; he was a big fan of Mozart as well as Gluck. I'm pretty sure he's in Pitou, although I only have access to a snippet view at Google Books. --Folantin (talk) 19:44, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really only planning to do Sémiramis and Les Bayadères at the moment. I have quite a bit of information on them but lack complete details of who sang the roles and the voice types for each role. If you could help out there, that would be great. Les bayadères is in my work space here. Sémiramis is here. --Folantin (talk) 21:31, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the Sémiramis. One thing I have noticed is that there is definitely a role for the Ghost of Ninus (L'Ombre de Ninus) in the opera, although it does not appear on my cast lists. Does Pitou say anything about this part?

By the way, the role of Sémiramis is in fact for mezzo-soprano, even though the soprano Maillard sang it at the premiere. I'll put a note to that effect in the finished article. Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 07:28, 14 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As for the Ghost, Pitou does not add anything to what you have already written. He just says in the synopsis: "the ghost of Ninus appears to approve the marriage, if suitable sacrifices are made". For my part I have checked the online coeval score p. 212 ascertaining that the part exists and is notated in the bass clef. Therefore, the role might be inserted in your cast list ascribing it, as usual, to the basse-taille voice type.

As for the soprano/mezzosoprano question, I wrote my general opinion in footnote 8 of the article Renaud (opera) concerning precisely Mlle Maillard. Since no difference was usually considered between the two registers in the French baroque opera and both were notated in the same treble clef, scholars will not venture into searching that difference and ascribe all female parts to the soprano voice type. As far as I can recollect, for instance, in The New Grove Dictionary of Opera no role in Rameau's operas is ever desbribed as a mezzosoprano (or, much less, contralto) part. On the other hand many of the 1700 French female parts are now performed indifferently by sopranos and mezzos. Ciao. --Jeanambr (talk) 10:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. In the booklet, Dratwicki specifically says the part was "intended for the mezzo-soprano voice", noting this was "almost a novelty for the time". Maillard had great problems singing the role and had to withdraw after only a few performances. Of course, I'll add these details to the article when I get chance to finish it. --Folantin (talk) 14:10, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, I completely agree. --Jeanambr (talk) 15:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I see you're working on Madame Branchu's biography. There's an article on her in the Bayadères book I have. I'll try to add information from it in the next few days. Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 22:10, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for not getting round to the Branchu article yet. It looks more complicated than I anticipated. I'd rather translate your Italian article on François Lays (or however you spell him!) before Christmas, if that's OK with you. --Folantin (talk) 10:26, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm beginning work on the Lays article again. It's pretty complicated and may take some time. To make things easier for myself, I'm going to translate the main text first then insert the footnotes at a later stage. Grazie. --Folantin (talk) 12:00, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've got a couple of hours to work on the article this morning. (Just telling you so we don't step on each other's toes). Ciao. --Folantin (talk) 10:40, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Everything is now on this page - the almost finished version - so you should make any revisions there. Thanks. --Folantin (talk) 21:20, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ta da!!!! --Folantin (talk) 10:04, 20 March 2015 (UTC) Thanks. I wasn't planning to retranslate everything. It was just easier to transfer the whole of the text from the Italian Wikipedia then work out which bits were new. But you've made things a lot easier, so thanks again. --Folantin (talk) 17:06, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I'm now working on the final version here User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin1. Just to save you from reduplicating your efforts elsewhere. --Folantin (talk) 17:31, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've finished for today and won't touch the page again, if you want to check it over. There are still a couple of references and some hyperlinks missing. BTW I'm probably going to omit the note about the French expression "mettre à pied" (too complicated!). Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 18:19, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that last edit. I was a bit confused but it seems the Mercure belge did indeed exist before the state of Belgium! --Folantin (talk) 09:47, 17 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Jeanambr:

You clearly need to learn about ISBNs.

For the article Les fêtes vénitiennes, the ISBN that you prefer (2-87009-521-10) is BAD. Go to this ISBN converter site: http://www.isbn.org/ISBN_converter. When you try to convert 2-87009-521-10 to its ISBN-13 equivalent, you get the following error message: "Bad ISBN 28700952110".

That's why I was sent by Checkwiki to the "Les fêtes vénitiennes" article.

Secondly, your comment on the undo--"Previous lenght was correct"--is also inaccurate. The ISBN that you prefer is an ISBN-10 (it has 10 digits). Whenever possible, like now, ISBN-10s should be converted to their ISBN-13 equivalents.

In conclusion, the ISBN that I entered is CORRECT; it does not generate an error, and it is ISBN-13. Your ISBN is WRONG; it generates an error, and it is ISBN-10. That should be simply enough to understand, right? Please, next time, before you undo an edit, research it a little bit first.

Knife-in-the-drawer (talk) 16:54, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much. I was just about to ask for your help. There's very little about this opera online and I don't have the recording. (BTW A lot of my sentences in the draft are unfinished; that's why a lot of it still reads like a mess). Ciao. --Folantin (talk) 20:39, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Pougin is available at the Internet Archive here [7].

I've been trying to work out the other roles - as well as those in other operas - from reading Elizabeth Bartlet, Etienne-Nicolas Méhul and Opera: Source and Archival Studies of Lyric Theatre during the French Revolution, Consulate and Empire (Etudes sur l'opera francais du XIXeme siecle) (Galland, 1999). Unfortunately, there's only a "snippet view" available so I can't get all the information. A shame, as that Bartlet book looks pretty definitive (it's 912 pages long!). Thanks again. --Folantin (talk) 18:44, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to your suggestions above (and making my way through the tangle of snippet views), I've been able to complete the table of roles and first performers of Ariodant. Ciao.--Jeanambr (talk) 16:20, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've still got a few things to add but the revision is substantially complete so I've moved it all to the article page. I'm going to try to find the Mercure de France review online as it could have more details. I suspect "La bergère" might have been a danced role - by Mlle Puvigné. Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 10:16, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I, too, suspected it might have been performed by Mlle Puvigné (who was a dancer that would sing small parts, as well), but it is undoubtedly a singing role, as it appears at page 32 of the manuscript score (within a long scene during which "on dance", reads the score). In the list of roles and perfermers that can be found at the beginning of the score, no mention to the solo role of a "bergeress" or to Mlle Puvigné as a performer is made. Concerning Mlle Puvigné's appearance in the opera Le magazine de l'opéra baroque writes: "La Naissance d'Osiris fut l'occasion pour Rameau d'illustrer l'idée de Cahusac de ballet figuré ou danse en action, notamment lorsque la fête est interrompue par le bruit du tonnerre provoqué par Jupiter, provoquant l'effroi des bergers, puis lors de la remontée de Jupiter dans les cieux, accompagnée d'une pantomime dansée par l'Amour (Mlle Catinon) et une Bergère (Mlle Puvigné). C'est la même année que Louis de Cahusac fit paraître un Traité historique de la danse". Ciao.--Jeanambr (talk) 11:39, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there's quite a long description of that ballet figuré in the Reyne recording booklet. I might add it to the article. I'll deal with Cahusac's theories about dance when I revise his biography. I thought La naissance was going to be an easy work to start with, but I'm surprised just how much information there is about it!. Ciao. --Folantin (talk) 11:58, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comment about Platée. I will look in a couple of other sources to see if there are notable productions which should be added, so do edit my additions if necessary. (sorry for the delay in responding) Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:36, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I am still trying to find a reliable source for the 1978 performances at Drottningholm, which ought to go in... Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 18:58, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, the anonymous user 73.65.24.171 made several vandalism-like changes to Tecumseh and you reverted some but not all of them. It's now complicated enough that I don't trust my newbie skills at correcting all of it, but I hoped that you could look through the history again and undo the damage. Thanks,  —jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:18, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Learned how to use Twinkle. I'll try not to become dangerous.  —jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 06:29, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And again. --Folantin (talk) 10:49, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I, too, left a message about your edit to Il Sant'Alessio, with quick mentions on Il Palazzo Incantato, overro La Guerriera Amante and L'Orfeo. Jacob Carpenter (talk) 21:02, 20 December 2016 (UTC)Jacob Carpenter[reply]

Dear Mister Ambr(Amber? Ambroise? Ambrozi?).

Please forgive me for assuming you to be a woman, sir! It is just that the name is so muddied in my own tongue, more females are called 'Jean' sans the French background. You must be a Frenchman or Franco-Italian scholar.

I understand where you are coming from about clefs, spellings, et cetera as a former boy soprano (range to A6), then baritone-based sopranist (range to E6). It is mostly personal research, but I stand by my changes.

All sources should be looked at, then, if one or more is definitely wrong, throw it away. Otherwise, I feel more data can be gathered. Should there be a crossroads, the alternative information needs to get noted.

Grove Music Online, [Doctor] Margaret Murata's articles and books, and such are solid proofs. They surely must count on the Barberini family operas. And yes, I notice many differences in spelling castrati' names.

Angelo Feretti, Domenico del Pane, Marco Pasqualini, Marco Sportoni(o)--one could go on and on and on! I believe you and me will have to agree to disagree on our conflicting accounts.

Yes, I am new to Wikipedia's controls. They are hard for me to comprehend electronically, so you can guess my frustrations not on paper. Thank you, sir, for offering directions.

A belated Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, sir. May God bless you and your family!

Yours faithfully,

Jacob Carpenter (talk) 21:55, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note to say I haven't completely disappeared but I'm busy in real life at the moment. I will try to get back to editing properly some time in the next few months. Ciao. --Folantin (talk) 10:03, 12 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Joseph Legros, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Third (music). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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--Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:16, 13 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Three years ago, you were recipient no. 1655 of Precious, a prize of QAI! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:24, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As promised (long ago!) I've merged the 1757 Rameau Anacréon into the main Les surprises de l'Amour article. Maybe you could check it out when you have time. Any suggestions would be welcome. Grazie. Folantin (talk) 10:33, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

...I haven't totally disappeared. I've been busy in real life. Should be back to writing those Grétry articles soon. Ciao. Folantin (talk) 10:43, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for spotting. I've cleaned up the prose a bit; personally I think it's safe to say that she was of Jewish extraction, given the source of the article. So I left that in there, with the wording smoothed out a bit.

Happy editing! --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 18:37, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Good morning, and thank you for the nice note. You are probably right, and I am far too thick and intellectually cowardly to take a position on this without studying it rather more carefully than I have! I was hoping only to address this short-term matter of pointing it back to the theatre rather than the, ah, alternative one that had crept in; I am sure that you'll be able to find a solution to the best approach in the long term. Thanks and best wishes DBaK (talk) 08:05, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:52, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Jeanambr—thank you for the message. I've incorporated the draft from your sandbox into a section entitled "Legacy". I'd be happy to copy-edit the article as you suggested. Cheers, Kyuko (talk) 12:09, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Precious

Four years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:55, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, @Gerda Arendt: it's really very kind of you!

Hello! Voting in the 2021 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 6 December 2021. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate in the 2021 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:20, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Content you added to the above article appears to have been copied from this book, which is not released under a compatible license. Copying text directly from a source is a violation of Wikipedia's copyright policy. Unfortunately, for copyright reasons, some content had to be removed. Content you add to Wikipedia should be written in your own words. Please let me know if you have any questions. — Diannaa (talk) 15:16, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Diannaa: I don't remember having ever edited anything in the above article. There must have been a mistake.--Jeanambr (talk) 15:43, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Diannaa:: you probably wanted to refer this change in the article on Maria Spiridonova, but I can't honestly understand what happened. It appears that my last edit was edited by you and you refer to a possible copyright infringement that I can't single out. I have only reported in quotes a small passage from Figes as it is continuously done and as there have been many others and for a very long time in that same article. Maybe my imperfect knowledge of English does not enable me to understand. Sorry.--Jeanambr (talk) 16:18, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Diannaa: In fact, now, it just seems to me you have removed the last sentence from a quoted quote (as well as the final quotation marks). Let me know, please, what I am to do. BTW, I have drawn my quotation not from Scribd.com, but from the Internet Archive, as I have stated citing the book among the references. I own a copy of the Italian edition of the book.--Jeanambr (talk) 16:32, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct; it was part of a quotation. Sorry for the mistake, as well as the copypaste error in the header. Note I have not restored a smaller removal I made elsewhere in the article.

I tried to link a source, but couldn't do so: http://www.tp4.rub.de/~ak/disc/padn/ Then here is the information on said page: "Paulo Abel do Nascimento (1957-1992) was the 15th child of a poor family in Fortaleza/Brazil. Lack of testosterone prevented his voice from breaking. He studied composition and conducting in São Paolo, where Roger Cotte heard his unique voice. Later he was educated in Europe and gave his debut in 1981 in Belgium. He died in Paris of an AIDS related illness.

He sang mainly cantatas and lieder from his home. His voice sounds quite unique, but not very high, about f - f (F3 - F5)."

Another source is an Brazilian(?) interview with optional Subtitles in English where he explains it himself: Paulo Abel - Interview about his voice and life

There are also multiple instances of him using a Tenorial Chestvoice, I will link to a video of him singing Bachiana Brasiliera No. 5: Tenorial Chestvoice Example, you can fast forward to 2:00min where he definitely uses his full chestvoice

PS: I am an Alto currently in training myself and personally found Altos to be rather hard to find these days and thus underrepresented in the article...

I hope you can help me by adding these sources, as I am very new to WikiPedia and a bit helpless with how I should do so, Greetings from Germany. Robin Pannenberg (talk) 13:41, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Precious

Five years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:15, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, Gerda. Jeanambr (talk) 10:23, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I took the liberty to edit your Userpage for grammar. See how you like it! All the best, Damián A. Fernández Beanato (talk) 23:15, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks.--Jeanambr (talk) 11:48, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you like it this opera! 37.77.115.80 (talk) 19:21, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately I don't know this opera. Not yet!--Jeanambr (talk) 19:46, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So look at https://operastory.co.uk/helvellyn-by-george-alexander-macfarren/ 37.77.112.153 (talk) 18:22, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks. Jeanambr (talk) 21:37, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Precious

Six years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:52, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What was your reasoning for removing my small edit clarifying that Arrian did questioned the events truthfulness? It is a verifibale fact that he questions it, and it is a small little side note to give extra context to an anecdote. It is not in anyway harmdul or cluttering to the page, I sourced it properly and it's important for readers to know that there is some doubt in the sources about certain events. Finnders2207 (talk) 10:23, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have not removed it: I just added above the general statement it is maybe a legend, with Arrian's quote in the footnote. If you don't agree, feel free to edit again. Cheers. Jeanambr (talk) 11:12, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]