User talk:NaturaNaturans

		Viriditas is wishing you Happy Holidays!
		Enjoy your cookies and have a great 2013!

/Archive 1

Sorry about that! I saw you'd gone to notify the article creator, and thought you'd missed the bit where you add the nom to the log for the day. KillerChihuahua 20:13, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's alright. What takes you 10 seconds takes me about an hour Allisgod (talk) 20:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Eh, I've been here a while. Took me forever when I first started too. It was more the order of your edits than the time taken. KillerChihuahua 20:18, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This conversation made me start wondering, and my very first contribution at Afd was also for an OR article. KillerChihuahua 20:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Ok, now that's funny. Don't be discouraged; the bot doesn't check to see if someone has commented already before posting an invite on their usertalk page; every now and then you will get an invite to an Rfc to which you've already contributed. KillerChihuahua 13:55, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nevertheless, I think I should add my opinion on this issue of Carl Sagan being a pantheist. Allisgod (talk) 17:36, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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May I suggest that if you are changing your username so that people don't make assumptions about you based on your uName that you choose something other than NaturaNaturans? It reads as though you're either a pantheist or a naturalist/nature lover/environmentalist, or both. Try to think of something truly neutral, like UncleBob or BobEdits or EditorBob or TooTallToType or YellowBalloons or something. Something which hints at nothing about you, but makes you Everyman. Just a suggestion. KillerChihuahua 19:55, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Those are assumptions I don't mind. Plus it's a relatively unknown phrase used by a philosopher over 300 years ago, and if people look it up, I wouldn't mind that either. Allisgod (talk) 23:55, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ok excellent, if those are potential associations you wouldn't mind, then no worries. I just thought since I knew you weren't happy with some of the associations you've encountered thus far with your current uName, I should mention the possibility. KillerChihuahua 00:40, 7 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi NaturaNaturans. I came across your name while looking up Spinoza in Storig. Nice name Getting your point of view, thanks to the name. I started doing some cleaning-up of Monism. Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:09, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to continue the talk here. I would like to know more on pan(en)theism, but I don't know if the Talk Page of Nondualism is the right place for that. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:37, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I get the impression that "Nondualism (modern spirituality)" is some sort of panentheism. If the Monism-article contains short definitions/overviews of the various sorts of pantheism, then "Nondualism (ms)" fits in in a logical way, doesn't it? Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:43, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pantheism/panentheism are about God/divinity, whereas non-dualism/monism are more general descriptors. They often imply divinity, but divinity is not completely necessary for the view of non-dualism/monism. As for it being closer to pantheism or panentheism - that all depends and scholars debate about these things. Panentheism's main disagreement with pantheism is the idea that God/divinity are limited to what we call 'everything'. They say that God/divinity transcends everything. NaturaNaturans (talk) 01:09, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So,

• Pantheism says "God/divinity are limited to what we call 'everything'"?
• And panentheism says "God/divinity transcends everything"?
• What is meant with "everything"?
• Wouldn't a panentheist include god/divinity into everything?
• And how would you label "nondualism"?
• and where does Heidegger fit in?

I sound like a four-year-old, don't I, asking "why-why-why-why?!?" Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:37, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

yes panentheism includes god/divinity into everything, but wants to insist God is beyond everything...everything often means the natural (vs supernatural)...but the line between pantheism and panentheism is actually very blurry because definitions of 'everything' can vary. Nondualism/monism is closest to pantheism. The most popular forms of panentheism are not at all monist/nondualist - in fact, process theology goes against pantheism specifically because they insist on rejecting monism. As for Heidegger and all of his 'nothingness' philosophy, I have no idea how to classify him in relation to these subjects. Maybe nobody has ever really classified him because nobody knows what he's talking about. By the way, there are articles about these subjects here on Wikipedia ;) NaturaNaturans (talk) 08:43, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the answers. I'll ponder over them, to get the nuances. Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:47, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The lede is meant to summarise the article, and there is more than enough material in the main body to support that summary. We have far too many references in the lede anyway as a result of past controversies. The pseudo-science point in particular has been debates time and time again always with the same result - it is what the balance of scientific opinion calls NLP. Given the periodic periods of high controversy on the article, the fact that it remains under arbcom restrictions and has a strong history of disruptive behaviour including sock and meat puppetry, please use the talk page to gain consensus before making changes that are likely to be controversial ----Snowded ^TALK 04:45, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You ought to put this on the article talk page not here. The article is terrible and makes Wikipedia look bad. Please be less overzealous with your policing of the article and allow others to contribute. NaturaNaturans (talk) 06:28, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I fullthroatedly endorse your administrative determination as to the Pandeism page that that John Oakley material was improperly placed and ought to be removed. Blessings!! DeistCosmos (talk) 20:01, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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So I came across this page, Christian novel, and I thought, if it is appropriate to have such a page, then we ought to have, as well, a page on literature with pantheistic themes (though this would surely have more poetry, the Walt Whitman sort of stuff, and so I don't limit this notion to novels). Yes? DeistCosmos (talk) 21:50, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Hi, I've opened an NPOV discussion to give me advice and help. I have to notify you. Do not think that I am "dragging you in front of a noticeboard". I'm not. Like I say, I'm asking for guidance for my own editing. Here's the auto generated template thing ==Notice of Neutral point of view noticeboard discussion== Hello, NaturaNaturans. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. 149.254.56.143 (talk) 21:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I saw your recent edit on Jung, but suspect "pantheist" is not good representation of him. As far as I read (mostly Psychology and Religion) he insists his theories have no metaphysical import. Now I don't know about his personal belief and what they led him to. So if you have way to send me the relevant pages from the book you cited, or another source, I will be grateful. trespassers william (talk) 15:30, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sure Danny, there are two "Psychology and Religion" books by Andrew R. Fuller, College of Staten Island. "Psychology and Religion: Eight Points of View, 1994 - Page 111" states directly: "Jung's psychology turns out in fact to be pantheistic metaphysics." In 2008, he published "Psychology and Religion: Classical Theorists and Contemporary Developments" and calls the view "Jungian pantheism" on p 101 (in the conclusion). These pages can be accessed in Google Books.

There's another article "here" that states in its intro, ""He [Jung] believed himself to be possessed of two personalities, one pointing towards science and the other towards pantheism and the arts." He later points out, "Jung sees [religion] as an evidence of realities about human beings and the world which its doctrines and dogmas only indirectly address." (the 'realities' being a "collective unconscious"). There are other theologians who link the collective unconscious with pantheism and the mystical 'everything is god' idea (probably in order to distinguish Jung's views with theism). But Fuller I think would be the best source because he is the primary expert on the matter. NaturaNaturans (talk) 20:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I was unclear as usual. Gbooks only show the one sentence you quoted of pg 111 for this client. This is enough to see Fuller makes the link, but the case behind it is still a mystery, and I hoped you have it in electronic form. Jung's distinction is in his own Psychology and Religion lectures from 1938. Plus The Encyclopedia of Religion, 2nd edition ( 2004 / older . Macmillan/Thomson/Gale) warns "Jung bristled at his characterization, especially by theologians, as a metaphysician."

That's why I think the source should be regarded skeptically, and one commentator might not be enough. This is no big deal, your addition is cautious as it is. Yet a recent similar discussion at Talk:Hegel (I was not a party) reminded me that delicate thinkers are better not too readily categorized. The Kay article is a start but you seem to appreciate some useful argument in Fuller, what is it? trespassers william (talk) 23:33, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fuller catalogs the assumptions Jung makes about "God" - that God is the "opposite" of the ego; that Freud's God was sex; that the absence of God results in a void that must be filled (more than one scholar mention Jung's interest and assumptions about Nietzsche's God void being the cause of his illness as a way to show Jung's 'metaphysical' assumptions). Fuller writes: "Jung feels it is better to give conscious recognition to the tremendous influence of the collective unconscious relative to the ego and call it "God," the name it has always had (1956, p 81)." Jung's assumption: that God is the name it [the collective unconscious] 'has always had' is based on a pantheistic assumption that the collective unconscious IS a reality and it's name is God. That's the main argument, that Jung assumes God exists and IS the collective unconscious (whether or not there is 'proof'). He writes: "[Jung] remarks that God and the boundless and unified cosmos that constitutes "God's world" were realities of his experience."

Spinoza could have written that last line. I agree with you about skepticism and caution, but these are very clear expressions of pantheism despite Jung's denial of "metaphysics". Labels like "pantheism" are almost never embraced by the people they are applied to. As an aside, Jung's ideas can also be called panpsychism which is not yet mentioned in the Wiki article but sources for that are plentiful. Panpsychism + the God label = Spinoza style pantheism. NaturaNaturans (talk) 05:04, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Danny here's some extra stuff I came across, a great example of Jung's metaphysical assumptions and obvious panpsychism from 1946 "On the Nature of the Psyche": Jung: "Since psyche and matter are contained in one and the same world, and moreover are in continuous contact with one another and ultimately rest on irrepresentable, transcendental factors, it is not only possible but fairly probable even that psyche and matter are two different aspects of one and the same thing." That is nearly the exact metaphysical claim of Nietzsche and Spinoza. He later calls it the collective unconscious a.k.a. "God". That's very clearly pantheism, similar to Einstein and Spinoza's thinking. I suppose if I came up with it in this specific quote and his God statements someone could accuse me of WP:synthesis, but Fuller puts it together well in a similar and correct way. NaturaNaturans (talk) 05:23, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

Visit Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#On_Pantheism. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:44, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Stop edit warring at Pantheism, if you have some suggestion, you can discuss it in the talk page, instead of enforcing the change on which no one has agreed yet, nor you have made any valid argument. Or else if you continued edit warring, you can be blocked from editing without further notice. Bladesmulti (talk) 05:08, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ironic since you are doing the edit warring NaturaNaturans (talk) 05:47, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Stop edit warring at List of Pantheists, if you have some suggestion, you can discuss it in the talk page, instead of enforcing the change on which no one has agreed yet, nor you have made any valid argument. Or else if you continued edit warring, you can be blocked from editing without further notice. Bladesmulti (talk) 08:12, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, please see the steps at dispute resolution. Wikipedia also has an original research noticeboard that can be used for reports like this. Graham87 08:37, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you responded at the right place. However despite being an admin, I don't specialize in this sort of thing at all. Try the admins' noticeboard for edit warring. Technically, you both are probably edit-warring by now, but I'm not going to block either of you for it (seeing as I've never made a block remotely like it in my over six years as a Wikipedia admin).

However, it is true that the requirement for citations is reduced in the lead section, because it should summarise the rest of the article. Whether and how this applies to your specific case, I don't know; I've only gotten into this mess because List of French people is on my watchlist, and I don't plan to be further involved in this dispute. Graham87 14:43, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thank you anyway. NaturaNaturans (talk) 15:05, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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I would not be one to throw a "citation needed" tag there, as I have no doubt that you are correct, but it might yet be good (and not too difficult) to track down a citation or two for the proposition of Bruno being deemed a Pantheist. I suppose, as well, that some will call him a Panentheist. Blessings!! DeistCosmos (talk) 05:12, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In my research, he is actually the second most often mentioned "pantheist" in academic work after Spinoza. I will throw in a few citations, thanks for the suggestion. NaturaNaturans (talk) 16:51, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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At Talk:Stefan Molyneux#Survey, you wrote "the qualifier "political philosopher" might be more reasonable". Have you seen the list here User:Netoholic/Molyneux? His output is in more than just the political area. He's written a book on ethics called UPB and a book on atheism (metaphysical philosophy) called Against the Gods, both of which have been cited and commented on by other philosophers. This I think is why the single word "philosopher" is best in the first sentence to cover the whole range, as the details are worked out in the main body. -- Netoholic @ 05:05, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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