Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television

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WikiProject Television (Rated Project-class)
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Articles for every episode[edit]

I think it's time we stop making articles for every episode of popular shows. Some examples include The Mandalorian, The Walking Dead and The Simpsons. There's no reason to have an article for every episode, and some of them just plain out fail WP:GNG. Horacio Vara (talk) 17:53, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. I believe work should be done to create an actual article out of Wikipedia:Notability (television), instead of it redirecting to Wikipedia:Notability (media)#Programming. A standalone article could cover pilots/series articles (ideally once it is confirmed filming on the actual season has started similarly to WP:NFF), season articles, episode articles, and other articles related to television and are covered by this project and MOS. Wikipedia:Notability (film) could be a good template to follow if we want to undertake this. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:02, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
I'd say only about 1% of episode articles are actually done right. Amaury • 18:07, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
I'd be fully in favor of reworking WP:TVSHOW (the "Generally, an individual radio or television program is likely to be notable if it airs on a network of radio or television stations (either national or regional in scope), or on a cable television channel with a broad regional or national audience." line is massively misunderstood to mean "airs nationally = always notable!!", which has become a real problem, esp. for (non-notable) TV movies) as suggested, but that would be a big project. Maybe the best approach would be for somebody to just volunteer ("NOT IT!!") to write up a draft of that, and then have the rest of us comment on it and make suggestions. --IJBall (contribstalk) 18:35, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
From the episode articles of the shows mentioned I've seen (like The Simpsons) the majority do meet WP:GNG. As long as GNG is meet I have no problem with editors creating these articles if that is what the editors want to work on. The Simpsons is one of the few shows that have a standalone WikiProject and does quite well. They have 344 GA articles with most being episode articles. I don't feel that there is a need to create stronger notability guidelines that would cause a lot of them to be subject to AFD. If someone wants to take on the task of reading each episode article and evaluating it against GNG then be my guest. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat? 18:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Maybe true for that, probably true for Seinfeld. But should there be an episode article for every episode of "South Park"?! What about SpongeBob SquarePants?! Because that's pretty much the situation we have now. --IJBall (contribstalk) 18:41, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Checking List of SpongeBob SquarePants episodes, most episodes actually don't have an article. South Park episodes do though. El Millo (talk) 18:47, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict) South Park is in similar vein of The Simpsons in that every episode generally gets reviewed at this point with topical events covered in the episodes sometimes becoming noteworthy like Band in China which caused the show to be banned in China. I don't read the South Park episode articles much myself but the ones I have seen do meet GNG. Do we need an article for every episode of SpongeBob SquarePants? No we do not and there isn't enough reception to cause the majority of the series episodes to meet GNG. I do agree with you about the bit you quoted IJBall that is taken out of context where people think "aired nationally = Wikipedia article". That needs to be rewritten and clarified because other users could think shows like Keeping Up with the Kardashians or The Only Way Is Essex should have articles for each episode when in fact they do not. Individual episode articles should be treated as any other article in my opinion, evaluated on their own merits not because it is one of the handful of shows that has an article for each episode. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat? 18:52, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
The standard should not be "gets reviewed by some sites on the web" – the standard should be (as per, for example, WP:NFO: "The film is widely distributed and has received full-length reviews by two or more nationally known critics." (emphasis mine)). Game of Thrones likely easily passes this standard with many of its episodes. I doubt South Park does to the level of pretty much every episode getting its own standalone article. --IJBall (contribstalk) 19:44, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
It likely would be worthwhile to identify those critics or at least examples of them for English-based television (likely meaning the US set, Canadian set, UK set and Aussie set will be different). --Masem (t) 19:49, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Multiple episodes from Seinfeld and South Park are WP:PLOTONLY. The Burning (Seinfeld) and Season Finale (South Park) are good examples of why every episode should not have an article. Horacio Vara (talk) 18:54, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
OK looking at those two articles and evaluating them against WP:GNG The Burning (Seinfeld) would fail WP:GNG and is a clear example of WP:PLOTONLY. In its current form it most likely wouldn't survive an AFD. However before nominating it the best thing to do would be to check the almighty Google or the evil Bing to see if the episode does have reliable, significant coverage from secondary sources that can improve the article. Season Finale (South Park) in its current form is mostly WP:PLOTONLY however it has two reliable, secondary sources providing some reception about the episode. The reception does demonstrate the episode was covered. The episode article in this case (given it aired in 2019) could be improved upon by adding viewership information (which most likely is available) and checking other secondary, reliable general places outside of IGN and The A.V. Club for more coverage that often write about South Park episodes. If by chance IGN & The A.V. Club are the only secondary sources and viewership information is unavailable then it would be a candidate for AFD or redirect to the season article. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat? 19:11, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
FTR, The Burning (Seinfeld) should just be converted to a redirect right now. It's been tagged for 3 years! It's had its chance: nuke it to a redirect! --IJBall (contribstalk) 21:35, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
User:Alucard 16, after doing some WP:BEFORE for The Burning, I nominated it. --Slashme (talk) 19:42, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
If episode articles only contain just a plot and/or reception, generally they fail WP:GNG. — YoungForever(talk) 20:31, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
  • @YoungForever: Thank you! This is what I was trying to say. A plot and two reviews do not grant an article notability. Horacio Vara (talk) 14:50, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

I think broad questions like "Do we need an article for every episode of X" will be answered according to WP:ILIKEIT or WP:IDONTLIKEIT. We should have articles on episodes that are discussed in reliable sources. If there is significant coverage of the episode, then it is acceptable to have an article for that episode. Horacio Vara has nominated three large batches of articles for nomination today, for Simpsons episodes, Game of Thrones episodes and Walking Dead episodes. I expect that they will all be kept, because of the individual variations between coverage of each episode. If you want to clean out the non-notable episodes, that should be considered on an individual basis. — Toughpigs (talk) 19:12, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Actually I agree in this case the general question "Should each episode of a popular TV series have its own article?" falls exactly within WP:ILIKEIT or WP:IDONTLIKEIT. If every episode of a series happens to meet GNG (even barely) there shouldn't be an issue as long as GNG is meet. It seems some forget about the episode coverage task force. Looking at the batch AFD for The Simpson episodes all of these episode articles pass WP:GNG otherwise they wouldn't have escaped the purview of WP:NPP which requires new page patrol reviewers to check the article against WP:GNG and any other associated nobility guidelines we have at en~Wiki. The only article I would take any issue over is I, Carumbus because 4 of the sources out of 10 are Tweets from Al Jean which makes them primary sources. However I would just slap a more sources needed tag on it. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat? 19:28, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Given current discussions at WT:N there are two ways that the goal I'm seeing here can be achieved. First, to set the stage it would seem that if you look at our subject specific notability guidelines, we have three functions these do 1) set what are criteria for presumed notability for a standalone article 2) set conditions where it is not appropriate to make an article even if the GNG is met, and 3) set what types of sources are good or poor for notability in that area. For this, you are talking a two pronged approach: you can set (1) for episodes to require two reviews from well-established critics (which you should define; eg it sounds like you want your Rolling Stone or NYTimes which do not routine review shows but only focus on critical darlings (Better Call Saul and Watchmen I know personally) but not your IGN or AV Club (which touch everything) as the quality here) as a presumption for notability, which is good. You can also spell out (2) that while you could have a whole host of reviews from weaker sites (The IGNs and AVclubs), that if there is nothing more than those reviews and ratings, that while for any other topic those may be fine for the GNG, there would need to be more coverage in terms of development or legacy to have the episode article to keep the standalone or otherwise these would be merged back to episode lists.
The only only other thing with that is that for shows that are reviewed in low quality sources, you can usually find a RT score, and thus I would try to find a way to include the per-episode RT score into episode lists when shows are merged back. That gives the reader a quick link to check the reviews that were given without us having to give the reviews. --Masem (t) 19:56, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
I can try to dig it up if you want, but I think we've established on a past WPTV discussion (maybe WPFilm) that RT is only worth citing when it lists more than 20 reviews, otherwise there's too much random fluctuation, and if it has 20 reviews then enough of the 20 should be high-quality enough to justify a standalone article. — Bilorv (talk) 21:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
@Masem: What would the process be if this project wanted to even consider creating a standalone notability article? Can it be started in the draft space? And where would there need to be notifications that this is being crafted/considered? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 14:53, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
As its more a guideline than an article, it can go to WP space, tagging it with {{proposed}}. When you are happy with it (and to that I mean, the TV project is happy with it), then you can advertize getting to promoted to a full guideline via VPP, CENT, and other reasonable places through an RFC. You don't need to notify the whole of as it is drafted, only the version you want to become a guideline. --Masem (t) 14:57, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
I don't think this should come down to ILIKEIT or IDONTLIKEIT. If an episode is to have its own article, it needs to stand on its own as a notable topic in terms of the WP:GNG, with everything that that entails: significant coverage, reliable secondary sources, independent sources, and not indiscriminate information. --Slashme (talk) 19:42, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
  • @Horacio Vara, Favre1fan93, Amaury, IJBall, Alucard 16, Masem, Young Forever, Toughpigs, and Bilorv: I've been reading the discussion and didn't find a place to jump in because you all seem to generally agree with each other and with my view that 1. not all episodes, even of very notable shows, should have an article, and 2. there are currently a lot of episode articles that do not pass N. A first step, rather than debate a guideline, could be to bring up all the episode articles (from "List of episodes of X" pages and categories like WP episode coverage) and !vote on which are suitable for their own article. That would probably make the criteria for a guideline clearer, and clean-up episode articles at the same time because then someone could take the no votes to AfD. Kingsif (talk) 14:45, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
    • My suggestion is to set the notability guideline for television episodes here first (getting global support for that), *then* come at the articles armed with that guideline which should have consensus. It will be a lot easier then to justify the merges of existing episode articles (eg you are doing up against attitudes against AFDs like this Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Triggerfinger (The Walking Dead) that a consensus-based notability guideline will easy help to get around. --Masem (t) 14:54, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
      • I generally agree with this approach. But there are specific (flagrant) instances, right now, like The Burning (Seinfeld), that clearly fail WP:GNG, and should simply be boldly redirected back to the relevant season article or LoE article, or can be taken (individually) to WP:AfD in the meantime... But I do agree that Horacio Vara's "bulk delete" approach is unlikely to be fruitful, esp. in the absence of a strong and clear 'Notability for television' guideline. --IJBall (contribstalk) 15:11, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
        • Do keep in mind that some will likely try to claim sources do exist (eg I found a review on that episode at AV Club but not much more) when just going off the GNG. That's fair to do, you're just going to get a lot of pushback if the project isn't behind it. --Masem (t) 15:20, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
          • To clarify my position, I do not object to every episode in a series having its own episode article. I object to the general notion that a series can't possibly have most or all the episodes as individual articles which is what the initial post was about. The OP did two small bundles and one massive bundle at AFD but didn't elaborate specifically how the episode articles in question failed the existing GNG guidelines OP just said "failed WP: GNG" which is not enough of a justification to nominate so many articles like the OP did in my opinion. I see no problem with every episode of a series having its own article as long as GNG guidelines are meet. I object to things like "must have at least three reviews and one of them being from Rolling Stone" or something like "reviews from IGN and The A.V. Club can't be used to establish significant coverage" because it would place an undue burden at NPP. (Like how can IGN be good for video games articles but not episodes of a television series?) Also before blindly merging or putting an episode article up for AFD the proposer should do a quick search to see if there are more sources available than currently in the article. Since a lot of articles are created as stubs with the intent to be expanded on later a bit of due diligence should be made. I have no objection for clarification of TV notability guidelines that would clarify something like three or more reviews (or something along those lines) are needed to establish significant coverage along with details about the production, viewership information, cultural impact and/or awards (if applicable). I wasn't able to find more sources on The Burning (Seinfeld) so be bold and merge it like IJBall suggested. Episode articles should be reviewed on a case by case basis just like any other article on Wikipedia not in batches simply because a single TV show shouldn't have episode articles for every episode. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat? 15:23, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
I think it's appropriate to nominate GNG fails like IJBall's suggestion for AfD. Seinfeld has some landmark episodes that have been discussed a great deal, and many that haven't; 1990s sitcoms didn't get reviews for every single episode. Modern sci-fi/fantasy shows like The Mandalorian and Game of Thrones are much more likely to have every episode discussed at length, and I think the guidelines need to be clarified for those. — Toughpigs (talk) 15:30, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
  • I would have to agree with Rhino131's keep reasoning as the user was able to find a review from The AV Club, an article from The Week that discuss the episode. They also found sources from Uproxx, two interviews (one from Rolling Stone), etc. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat? 15:41, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
  • I trimmed the plot description and used the links from the deletion discussion to add some meta-discussion. It's now at least an acceptable start-class article of borderline notability. --Slashme (talk) 19:24, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Proposing that merge while this discussion and the AFD is happening is not the way to do this. Let this discussion and the AFD finish and then propose your next steps based on the consensus. TheDoctorWho (talk) 03:34, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Working draft created[edit]

All, per Masem's suggestion, Wikipedia:Notability (television) is now a working draft proposal for a guideline. Please feel free to edit thoughts there, as well as continue discussion on that talk page. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:24, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Still busy these days, but I will try and look at and comment, on this over the next several days. If we go with a separate WP:NTV guideline, I'll have several concerns/areas of interest: "refining" the "aired nationally" statement so it's clear that "aired nationally" doesn't automatically mean "notable!", TV pilots (so that we can hopefully avoid unfortunate AfD decisions like this one), TV episodes (not every episode of even the most popular TV series is going to justify a standalone article, and many series will have no epiosdes that qualify for an article!), TV movies (unlikely to be notable most of the time if released on a U.S. cable channel over the last 20 years), and as Masem suggests – what "level" of reviewing do we want to set as a benchmark (and, FTR, AV Club should be under what ever reviewing level benchmark we come up with!). --IJBall (contribstalk) 16:21, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Also, just as a general concept – how do you know any TV-related topic qualifies for an article? – When there is enough sourcing to properly justify a 'Reception' and a 'Production' section. Too many editors also take the approach that "reviews = notable!!", but if a TV project isn't also getting WP:RS coverage on the 'Production' end, I'm going to suggest that, as a general concept, that topic is probably not robust enough to justify a standalone article. --IJBall (contribstalk) 16:29, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Personally not a fan of ever having YANG (yet another notability guideline). It's almost always better to work down the list of articles that you think fail today's guidelines and either improve them or remove them. --Izno (talk) 17:47, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
It's actually useful for exactly the reason Masem suggests – there is less likely to be confusion over "what a notable TV program" is, if it's clearly spelled out somewhere how the "WP:GNG test" gets applied to the specific "subject" (TV shows, in this case). --IJBall (contribstalk) 18:41, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Honestly I find it a bit shocking at how prominent/active (in my opinion) the TV project is, that a standalone guideline page didn't exist since at the moment, all of the project's notability guidelines are contained to a single section at the general media notability article. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:17, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Just to note that the finalised SNG will need a full RFC as it affects 1000s of articles, including quite old ones ( Bewitched has 100+ episode articles, or it did the last time I looked), imv Atlantic306 (talk) 01:23, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
  • This is an absurd attempt to undermine community consensus (see WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS or the explicit consensus at Talk:The Mandalorian) that these episodes are in fact notable. A group of editors here cannot suddenly decide the GNG is no longer good enough for tv episodes. Remember per WP:PROPOSALS: “Most commonly, a new policy or guideline documents existing practices, rather than proposing a change to what experienced editors already choose to do.” If you think certain episodes don’t meet the GNG, fine, but you cannot make a more difficult threshold to pass because you don’t like the existing consensus and feel there “shouldn’t” be such articles. -- Calidum 20:09, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Agree, the stipulations are far too prescriptive and detailed as if it is a manual of style for a featured article. Obviously a production section is preferred but is it really essential? When the article is a fleshed out start class with multiple reliable sources secondary coverage such as national reviews is the absence of a production section really the breaker.The Film Project has defined reviews by national critics as reviews with a large national audience not the reputation of the individual reviewer. There is also the problem that production details often do not come from reliable sources as defined by independence - for example an autobiography of the writer, producer or director, or a source affiliated with the production company. There are GAs that use the dvd documentaries of the film or tv show extensively for the production sections. Overall the qualifications for a episode article as proposed are too onerous in my view, Atlantic306 (talk) 01:01, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Notability (television) is a working draft so you are welcome to edits or adjust anything there. Nothing's been finalized yet. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 04:40, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Favre1fan93 says that edits are welcome, so I took them up on the offer. :) I edited the "Television episodes" section to say that episode-specific reviews contribute to notability.
In the first paragraph, the text said that having reviews "is common to the vast majority of television episodes." This is not true; there are thousands of television episodes that have never been specifically reviewed, especially pre-internet. It also said, "an article composed of just these elements is most likely redundant to the main article." This is also untrue: the main show article does not contain reviews for individual episodes.
I also changed "While having a significant number of reviews is a step towards considering a television episode notable" to "Having a significant number of reviews contributes to considering a television episode notable", and made it more clear that coverage of production aspects is a suggestion for creating a higher-quality article.
I'd be interested to know what other people think about these changes. — Toughpigs (talk) 15:35, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
That all looks good to me. (On my end, I'm not taking a look at this until probably next week...) --IJBall (contribstalk) 16:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
I just created the page to start making edits. It is by no means "closed" or restrictive to anyone for editing. I hope any of my comments regarding that page have not come off that way. Yes, I myself have started making edits there, but I want others to edit this, so it isn't just me, and all can then discuss. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:14, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
"A group of editors here cannot suddenly decide the GNG is no longer good enough for tv episodes." - what part of the proposal as it stands at the moment is more restrictive than the GNG? --Slashme (talk) 18:50, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
The advice I'm seeing in the draft is the same type of advice that is at WP:NFF for future films - which is where even if good sourcing exists that could potentially meet the GNG, articles on yet-produced films should not be made. Per the current discussion at WT:N on what functions an SNG can do, this appropriate is fully within practice for the proposed TV SNG. (If/when this becomes a guideline, it will be a wholly separate matter of how we'd go about handling the hundreds of episodes that might run afoul of that). --Masem (t) 18:57, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Some editors in the above discussion and the one regarding The Mandolorian seem to suggest that reviews alone -- no matter who publishes them or how many reviews there are -- should not establish notability. WP:N suggests no such thing. It's also remember what WP:SNG says about subject notability guidelines. "[Subject notability guidelines] are considered shortcuts to meeting the general notability guideline" and "A topic is not required to meet both the general notability guideline and a subject-specific notability guideline to qualify for a standalone article." -- Calidum 19:15, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
  • I've added some language that explains that we need to show that to rise beyond IINFO, an article about an episode needs to find sources that discuss the episode at a meta level, not just recount the plot, and need to show that it's had an impact beyond that that any ROTM episode would have. --Slashme (talk) 18:44, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
    What is a "meta level"? — Toughpigs (talk) 03:37, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
  • As far as reviews go, I do say that reviews grant notability since an outlet is extremely unlikely to review every episode that airs. It's the same premise as with film reviews: there will always be far, far more episodes of any given show than there will be outlets that can or will review them. What I would argue is that rather than argue that reviews shouldn't give notability, the number of reviews needed to establish notability should be raised to say, 3-4. That will eliminate a great many episodes as far as notability goes. Length and in-depth qualities of a review would be harder to concretely nail down, as a good writer can nail down a review in 1-2 paragraphs as long as they're concise and clear.
As far as making the critic nationally known, that's a bit harder to nail down since the criteria is so loose when you consider the reach of the Internet. An article of any type posted on the internet can be seen on a global scale and a review from a well-known, major newspaper that isn't posted online could be seen as non-national. The reason I mention this is that there are multiple countries where Internet coverage is a little harder to gain. South Africa is kind of notorious for this, to the point where one of the keynote speakers at the 2015 WikiConference USA actually went into some detail about how difficult it was for some SA topics to meet notability guidelines because of the lack of web presence of many news outlets. I feel that the best way to establish whether a source is usable is to determine if it's reliable and if the source is in-depth, as otherwise this could have a severe negative impact on non-English or Western media. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (。◕‿◕。) 04:40, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
I think the problem is the opposite – anyone in the First World can get a group of friends together and put out a website where they "review" TV episodes. This is rather the current problem – anyone can review U.S. or UK TV shows. This is why the metric needs to be higher than "I found 3 reviews on the internet = notable!!". The issue is that some editors want to define any coverage as "significant coverage" (as per GNG), but the standard should be higher than that. That is why I like WP:NFO's "full-length reviews by two or more nationally known critics" standard, because that at least makes it clear you can't just take any old "review" website you find on the web and use that to try to get "by" GNG. --IJBall (contribstalk) 04:49, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Last month, Horacio Vara nominated seven Game of Thrones episodes and an astonishing eighty-nine Walking Dead episodes for deletion, saying that they failed GNG. I looked at a random episode in each bunch, and found that "Kill the Boy" (Game of Thrones) had reviews from The Atlantic, IGN and Vanity Fair, while "Coda" (Walking Dead) had reviews from the Daily Beast, Entertainment Weekly and iO9. I don't think that the Atlantic, Vanity Fair and Entertainment Weekly are run by a group of friends. IJBall, do you have an example of an AfD discussion that ended as Keep because someone in the First World got a group of friends together? — Toughpigs (talk) 05:20, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
  • We also need to remember that Wikipedia is meant to cover more than just First World countries, which is why so many of the notability guidelines seem to be so light and easy to pass. Most are written that way because they aren't meant to apply solely to US and other Western-centric topics. They're also meant to help make it easier to have coverage on topics concerning non-First World countries, where coverage may be available but much more difficult to come by. Re-tooling the notability guidelines with First World countries specifically in mind will only have a severely detrimental impact on Wikipedia's coverage of other countries. There's also the issue of coverage of women, minorities, and subcultures that tend to have a dearth of coverage in very mainstream sources. Here are some examples:
  • A South African episode doesn't have South African media coverage that Wikipedia editors can easily discover, however they do have coverage by way of reviews in Western media websites such as iO9 and SlashFilm. The episode was a major release in its area, but the majority of coverage isn't online because the media outlets don't have a major web presence or won't come up in a Western Google search. Google search has a history of not properly crawling the websites of non-Western countries.
  • A director creates an episode for a TV series that touches upon issues that they personally experienced as a transgender individual. The mainstream public generally doesn't cover LGBT shows and episodes the same way they would for say, Game of Thrones, so the coverage is predominantly reviews in places like PinkNews, AfterEllen, and Queerty.
  • An episode of a horror show gets light coverage but gains reviews in places like Bloody Disgusting, Dread Central, and the Rue Morgue website. The websites are not well known outside of the horror community but are major within the horror fandom.
If we argue that reviews shouldn't count towards notability that will severely impact Wikipedia's ability to cover non-Western and mainstream topics as a whole, as some episodes of shows that are non-Western and/or deal with specific subcultures or marginalized groups may not gain substantial coverage outside of reviews. As a horror fan I can say that shows like TWD and AHS are definitely outliers and do not represent typical coverage for the average horror themed show. The average horror TV show (as well as film and other media) is unlikely to gain substantial coverage, let alone coverage in places Wikipedia sees as reliable.
Now when it comes to the argument of nationally known critics, this is also an area that can negatively impact coverage on Wikipedia. What do we consider nationally known? It can be argued that if something is online it has the potential for global impact, as long as it is discoverable. We can't judge websites targeted towards subcultures and marginalized groups the same way that we would a website targeted towards the mainstream public. While a horror fan would see Bloody Disgusting or Rue Morgue as obviously major media outlets within the horror community, others may dismiss them as too minor when comparing them to even predominantly online outlets like the Hollywood Reporter or Deadline. The same could be argued for coverage in other countries where the newspaper may not be known to Western readers but be considered a big deal in its country - but just not have an online presence or much of one.
Where this concerns me is that while this deals with specific episodes, this argument has been applied to film articles and could also be very easily applied to articles for entire series. By severely limiting what can make an individual episode notable it makes it very easy to similarly limit what makes an entire series notable as there are many series that rely heavily on review/reception coverage to establish notability and its impact on media. While this may seem like a stretch to some, this would also impact coverage on the creative professionals involved in the production of said media, as there have been arguments that if a person's work doesn't have an article that they are by extension not notable either.
Wikipedia has already been severely criticized when it comes to its coverage of marginalized groups and non-Western countries, to the point where academic and scholarly articles have broached the topic. This is also a frequent topic of conversation at Wikipedia conferences as well. My concern here is that many of the arguments for this are looking at very mainstream media like Game of Thrones, South Park, and The Mandalorian, shows that are already household names and aren't considering that tailoring a guideline to restrict episode articles for those shows will in turn have an impact on articles for non-mainstream, non-Western media. I know that this isn't the intent of the guideline by any stretch, but I think that extreme caution needs to be applied when it comes to reducing or removing the impact of reviews towards notability and limiting what can be seen as a reliable source as it impacts more than just these mainstream media. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (。◕‿◕。) 07:15, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
  • I also want to note that I have actually seen cases where people have argued that horror outlets like Bloody Disgusting and Dread Central are minor and shouldn't count towards notability. It's honestly relatively common, particularly when you have a major outlet that is well respected in the horror community (and has been cited as RS by academic and scholarly sources) but lacks an article on Wikipedia. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (。◕‿◕。) 07:18, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
@Toughpigs: What does Horacio Vara AfD activities have to do with the point I was trying to make? Horacio Vara's actions seemed tied to my point as a way to denigrate it. I'm not defending his actions at all, though I agree with his general view that there are far too many "episode" articles on Wikipedia, and that a lot of them obviously fail WP:GNG and WP:ALLPLOT outright (though I don't agree with him that GoT or TWD were likely to be examples of this!)... As to your question, I can't think of a specific AfD where that has been an issue, but I believe I have seen some WP:AfCs that were probably swayed by what I would consider to be "lesser" (i.e. probably not good enough) use of "sourcing". And I can definitely think of instances where articles weren't taken to AfD because the author had strategically placed just enough (what I consider to be crappy) "sourcing" that no one would want to bother with the fight over it at AfD. I would like our standards to be higher than "Well, I'm not going to bother to take this article to AfD because there's just enough crummy sourcing that I'm going to get too much pushback at AfD to make this worth my time to nominate".
"If we argue that reviews shouldn't count towards notability..." @ReaderofthePack: No one is arguing that "reviews shouldn't count towards notability". What some of us are saying is that we'd like to see more than just reviews to consider a TV topic truly notable (in most cases). Add: Also, I think my point is that not all "reviews" are equal (weight/significance) – I don't have a problem with Dread Central, but I might have more a problem with AV Club or TV Tropes. I don't know if TV programs receive coverage of production aspects in a country like South Africa, but I've got to think there's at least some coverage like that even there (though, perhaps mostly in "trade" magazines?...). Certainly at the U.S./UK/Canada/Australia-level, I think a lot of us would like to see reviews+production info, not just reviews, esp. for TV episode articles, which tend to succumb to WP:ALLPLOT without this balance. And that's true for both TV and film. --IJBall (contribstalk) 07:40, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
I agree that not all reviews are the same, and that the LA Times and Entertainment Weekly are better than random blogs. But you said, "anyone in the First World can get a group of friends together and put out a website where they "review" TV episodes. This is rather the current problem – anyone can review U.S. or UK TV shows." If you don't know of any examples where the "group of friends" level of review was used to meet notability, then no, this is not "the current problem." — Toughpigs (talk) 18:16, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
What else would you call something like A.V. Club? This is the kind of site I'm thinking of. --IJBall (contribstalk) 18:43, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
might have more a problem with AV Club or TV Tropes - but TV Tropes doesn't publish reviews, or anything. I now consider it to basically be a fan wiki, a world away from A.V. Club (or any other actual publication). Kingsif (talk) 18:50, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
What you're saying is that reviews shouldn't be enough, however that will effectively end up equating to people not seeing reviews as a source of notability. This could in turn weaken other non-review sources. If say, twenty reviews in all of the major newspapers or subculture websites aren't enough to establish notability then someone could argue that a handful of other types of coverage wouldn't be enough either, particularly if they aren't multiple pages long.
Perhaps what could be a good alternative is to make a guide that would help others learn how to use review type articles more effectively. There are many review articles that discuss elements such as production, themes, and other things that fall outside of the realm of "my opinion is X" (for example, delving into comparisons on the director or writer's work to past works or episodes to comment on character growth). I don't think that many people realize that they can use this information to make an article more than just a review and plot synopsis, not just for film and TV articles, but for most media in general. Not only that, but also help show them what sources in general can be used and which shouldn't. I know that there are some guides out on this, but few that are very user friendly or easily discovered by newbies. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (。◕‿◕。) 10:09, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Comments I agree there are far too many non-notable episode coverages on Wikipedia. Not convinced on a bright line of "20 reviews". One editor seems to think the project may produce "rubbish" and has no authority (no effect) but a large consensus does. The vast majority of episode coverage I have seen fail GNG with no significant coverage, are FANCRUFT with mainly all plot, and I comment those looking into this. Otr500 (talk) 04:11, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

speaking of items, will there be a tv version of {{film draft notice}}? Starzoner (talk) 02:51, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

@Starzoner: If this notability guideline materializes, there will in theory be a "NFF" equivalent that a template could be made to state. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:57, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Episode notability suggestions[edit]

While WP:NTV is still being worked out, and given the ever-increasing discussions as more and more episode articles are created, I have some suggestions for criteria. I don't intend this as an RfC, but to see if the ideas have general support before an RfC on adding them to the guidelines.

  1. Principle: an episode should demonstrate notability on its own; that is, the article would pass GNG regardless of the series. Therefore, it should include:
    1. Reliable sources* documenting its production, with more than a passing mention, and
    2. Reliable sources* documenting its reception, with more than a passing mention
    3. If an episode meets GNG, but not all of the NTV criteria, it may still get an article if...
  2. An episode article should normally have both production and reception sections to be considered notable, in line with MOS:TVPRODUCTION and MOS:TVRECEPTION, unless it was unreleased (see 4 & 5)
  3. If the episode belongs to a commissioned series, the show will normally have an article for any of its episodes to be considered notable. The episode is not considered notable enough for its own article if:
    1. It will only duplicate information that is sufficiently DUE at the series article or a relevant season article or a relevant episode list; or
    2. There is no season article or episode list covering the relevant span due to lack of coverage. Extremely notable individual episodes may be exceptions
  4. If the episode does not belong to a commissioned series, i.e. an orphaned pilot or unproduced pilot, it should demonstrate sufficient production coverage and lasting impact in reliable sources*
  5. If the episode belongs to a commissioned series but was unaired, or not completed, it should demonstrate sufficient notability for unproduced works as if it did not belong to any series. This includes production coverage and lasting impact in reliable sources*
  6. An episode that may not meet all of the individual criteria can be deemed notable if it is part of a season of television that is extensively studied and of significant historic notability; that is, the season is the subject of lasting academic criticism and extensive lasting popular culture coverage of sufficient depth. In these cases, a majority of the season's episodes must also meet independent notability criteria (see discussion)
  7. Plot, release and cast list are considered trivial and non-notable coverage, as they are all evident and able to be confirmed through an episode's mere existence; however, they should be included in episode articles that are otherwise notable
  8. Being nominated for or winning awards, even Emmys and BAFTAs, does not automatically denote episode notability; these can be covered at a season or series article (see discussion)
  9. Some variation upon saying episodes released as part of a streaming block, with the exception of anthology series, (probably) may not get enough coverage to be independently notable

*Reliable sources refers to those relevant to the TV WikiProject, and independent to the production of the episode. These do not have to be in English.

Kingsif (talk) 20:42, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with this. On the specific topic of TV pilots, I really think we need to clamp down on this area especially, and we should be clear that "significant coverage" actually means more than short-term coverage (and/or sourcing demonstrating a "lasting impact"), so we avoid outcomes like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Best of Times (TV pilot) where the "keep" outcome at AfD was truly a travesty. --IJBall (contribstalk) 20:56, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Changed "popular impact" to "lasting impact" above Kingsif (talk) 21:05, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Also, you want to avoid words like "must". A guideline will instead generally say something like, "Notable television series and series episodes will generally receive significant coverage on both their production aspects and their critical response and/or cultural impact." I'm not saying the wording will be exactly this – but it shouldn't use words like "must", as there will always be exceptions. That's actually why I have a problem with the current first sentence of WP:TVSHOW – saying "Generally, an individual radio or television program is likely to be notable if it airs on a network of radio or television stations (either national or regional in scope), or on a cable television channel with a broad regional or national audience." just isn't clear enough that there are definitely exceptions to this, and "airing nationally" on its own isn't enough. --IJBall (contribstalk) 21:07, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Oh yeah, I'm hoping this will be prose-ified before becoming a guideline, as well. Kingsif (talk) 21:09, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
The wording An episode article should normally have both production and reception sections to be considered notable" reads as more to do with article quality than notability. Notability on those points are things like an overly long production period e.g. took three times as long to shoot as a normal episode, had 12 directors, was scheduled for series 3 but didn't surface until series 5 etc, and reception is, it was universally praised/trashed. I don't think notability should be dictated by having a section, that would invite padding. - X201 (talk) 13:04, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
@X201: There's a discussion below about what qualifies as suitable production/reception sections. Perhaps if the wording explains that it should have such sections that meet the TV MOS? Kingsif (talk) 13:15, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
@Kingsif: Thanks for all these suggestions. I just want to point out (at least in my view), the text currently being drafted at WP:NTV in regards to television pilots/unaired pilots, and television episodes is more or less "accepted" for what it is, and probably should be used as a basis to expand upon with anything else discussed here. I'm not saying what's at Wikipedia:Notability (television)#Television pilots, future series or seasons, and unreleased series and Wikipedia:Notability (television)#Television episodes are the be all end all, just that there's a good foundation there and that text shouldn't be disregarded when considering any further changes. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:37, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Oh also, anything that is seemingly agreed upon can just be added right to the proposed NTV because it's just in a drafting stage. Based on how it was described to me, once this project/concerned editors agree on something as drafted, then we should have RfCs to get wider input. We aren't there yet, so as I said, we can just make changes right to the proposal. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:39, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Is there currently anything agreed upon that could be implemented on the working draft Wikipedia:Notability (television)? — YoungForever(talk) 00:15, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Season crit[edit]

There needs to be some version of criteria 5 from WP:BOOKCRIT: The book's author is so historically significant that any of the author's written works may be considered notable. This does not simply mean that the book's author is notable by Wikipedia's standards; rather, the book's author is of exceptional significance and the author's life and body of written work would be a common subject of academic study. Some TV shows or franchises are so notable that their entire history is studied. On the other hand, we don't want this to be a license to having every episode of a long-running, studied-in-academic-circles soap opera have individual articles "because WP:TVEPISODECRIT." To prevent "runaway article creation" I would recommend that the criteria be limited to episodes that are part of a season or series in which over half of the members already qualify for and already have articles (not redirects). davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 🎄 21:10, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Interesting suggestion, so the TV season is so historically significant that any of its episode can be considered notable? How about a variation on (added as #6):
  1. An episode that may not meet all of the individual criteria can be deemed notable if it is part of a season of television that is extensively studied and of significant historic notability; that is, the season is the subject of lasting academic criticism and extensive lasting popular culture coverage of sufficient depth. In these cases, a majority of the season's episodes must also meet independent notability criteria.
I really agree on that last point; I know a season that would theoretically qualify but I don't think any of its episodes are really notable enough and wouldn't like to see the exception be used to have them created and kept. Kingsif (talk) 21:31, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Well, let's break down the process: in terms of articles, it's TV series -> LoE -> season -> episode(s) in order (sometimes the LoE step is skipped). Why do I bring this up? Because some TV series will not qualify for separate "season" articles, and just because a "season" article exists/is justified doesn't mean that individual TV episode articles are justified. So I would be leery of the idea that having a well-studied TV "season" necessarily implies that individual episodes will qualify for standalone articles. --IJBall (contribstalk) 21:38, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
If most of the episodes are notable, and the season is notable, does that make all of the other episodes to some level notable as default? When David mentioned it, I looked from the reader's perspective; that if a season seems so significant, and I find an article for most of its episodes, I want to read about the rest of them and would find it strange that some seemed randomly excluded. On the other hand, if a series is that well-studied and most of its episodes notable, then episodes that can't procure enough independent notability may very well be not significant at all or it would have at least some coverage. Kingsif (talk) 21:45, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Let the coverage dictate it. First, this hypothetical episode will still be covered – in the season article. But I would have a problem with creating an article for an episode like The Burning (Seinfeld) just because "all the other episodes in that season have articles", because "The Burning" doesn't have the requisite production or even "review" level coverage... So, I think I have a problem with the idea that a "well-studied" season in which most of the episodes have standalone articles should "require" the other episodes to get articles even when the coverage doesn't justify it. --IJBall (contribstalk) 21:51, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
I would avoid this. Take, for example, most of the streaming services original programming which release new seasons of a show in one block. Because of that model, the season is clearly notable (eg Stranger Things (season 3)) but none of the individual episodes would be. --Masem (t) 21:49, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Oh no, you've reminded me of streaming blocks. Are episodes released all at once non-notable by default? I feel like that's the case and it would take some good sources to show otherwise. Kingsif (talk) 21:55, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Most of the time, yes, since all the media before and after release focus on the season. You may get individual episode reviews but rarely a single episode in a bloc gets the development or production-type details that a normal broadcast episode may get (comparing how Stranger Things was reported on to how Watchmen or Westworld had been handled). So I'd definitely make sure to account for this. I agree that in a normal case, if 50%+ of a season's episodes are notable, the rest likely are, so given that rarely a streaming bloc episode is notable, this may not be an issue. --Masem (t) 22:05, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
It probably doesn't need to be noted, then. Unless we want a whole section on streaming at the eventual guideline. Kingsif (talk) 22:09, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
In regards to this and #9 above, I think the tone of the statement should be lessened, or that number removed all together. We just need to state something like "episodes released in a block may not get the individual coverage to warrant individual articles" because it is still possible for a singular episode in a block (perhaps the first or last) to get significant coverage. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:48, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Black Mirror (series 3 to 5) is an exception but anthologies are more likely to receive individual episode attention. — Bilorv (talk) 22:42, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Just to clarify My original suggestion was NOT to say "you can create a [non-list-article] page about a season" (or "series" for things like the new Doctor Who) but rather "if the series/season qualified under general notability guidelines, whether it had an article or not, and where half or more of the episodes in the series/season already qualify for an article outside of this special "it's part of a notable season/season" exemption, then in order to "complete the set" all other episodes in that season will be "given a pass" on notability, much as otherwise-non-notable works by famous authors do not have to show they are notable in and of themselves." In other words, as with the books by famous authors, and for that matter songs and albums by famous musicians, sometimes "notability IS inherited" WP:NOTINHERITED notwithstanding. As for shows without distinct "seasons" things like "identifiable story arcs or other definable large contiguous sequences of episodes" or "the whole run of the show" can be used to substitute for "season/series." davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 🎄 22:01, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
I think we understood what you meant, but are not sure if we actually want to "complete the set" or not: from a reader perspective, we surely would, but episodes of a single season (or series) are much more closely connected than books by the same author (some of which may be much older and/or more obscure), so we can reasonably expect that if most of the episodes meet GNG, all of them will, and those that don't are exceptionally not-notable. Kingsif (talk) 22:13, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


For those already part of the discussion @IJBall, Masem, and Davidwr:, I've now added #8, about awards. I think this seems an obvious point of notability, but that it might be controversial. Kingsif (talk) 22:09, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with this. But also on the flip side, depending on the type of award nomination, by getting such it in theory could be believed that there's enough coverage out there to make an article. But an article shouldn't be created solely because of such nominations. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:48, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Missing ideas[edit]

So these ideas are just supposed to be standalone distinct ideas we could either get consensus for or against? Mentioned in discussion above (and with precedents at WP:NFO and WP:NBOOK) would be variations upon "X reviews", such as: (a) at least two reviews in reliable (inter-)national sources; (b) at least two reviews in reliable (inter-)national sources excluding those known for an extremely large number of reviews (IGN, A.V. Club have been given as examples); (c) at least five reviews in reliable (inter-)national sources. I would also add a possibility "winning an award can count towards this threshold" or just an option "winning a major award" that automatically qualifies as notability (in direct contradiction to criterion #8). Also maybe I'm missing it but I'd like a way for supporters of the following claim to have the potential for it to become consensus: "if a season/program has received extremely detailed coverage and the majority of episodes in the season/program are notable then the episode is considered notable" (targeted at people who think it would be an undesirable outcome to have 21 articles and 3 redirects for a season of a show). — Bilorv (talk) 22:42, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
To the first point, I didn't want to detail what a decent reception section would be. I think we all agree a reception section is needed, but what constitutes a notable reception section is debated. Perhaps a fixed number of reception articles (not necessarily reviews), with an award (that has a Wikipedia article for it/awarding body) counting towards that number, is the way to go. Should that be hashed out before RfC?
And please continue discussing the merits of the extremely detailed coverage part, more than three views on the matter would be great.
Kingsif (talk) 23:01, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
I can tell you what doesn't constitute a "proper" 'Response' section – one that only cites Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic! I would actually like to see it written in the guideline that a "proper" 'Response' section must (and here I would use "must"!) have more than just Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic, and must include proper individual reviews, and that sections consisting of just Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic can be removed from the article. I come across this fairly often. Right now, MOS:TV doesn't specifically speak to this, but it should. --IJBall (contribstalk) 23:42, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Hmm, what constitutes a "proper" production section should probably also be worked out, but these are more likely needed at MOS:TV, which you mention. And then linked from the notability criteria. I.e. NTV should say we expect "proper" production and reception sections, and see the MOS for what that means. Kingsif (talk) 23:45, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
This is a much higher bar for notability than is currently being used in AfD discussions. How are you planning on establishing a wider consensus for that meaningful change, outside of a few people talking and drafting on this page? — Toughpigs (talk) 00:03, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
That's good. AfDs are being closed as keep with reasons like "they said they're looking for sources and it exists so that's good enough for now", but it isn't good enough; there's a lower bar for notability of films than books and even then that's higher than the current acceptable level of TV episodes. There has to be a good reason to not just give the episode routine coverage at a season/show article to justify an individual article - because the more individual articles exist the more it prompts people to create them for every episode ever - but editors who have caught the creation bug want to give that routine coverage in a stubby episode article. The TV project can decide on TV notability criteria, then start an RfC for guideline inclusion (as I mentioned in the first sentence). But even if this discussion is just something referenced in AfDs as the intention of editors who are focusing on TV articles, it's something of a win. Kingsif (talk) 12:55, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
I'll repeat what I said in the previous discussion: RT/Metacritic are only worth citing when they list more than 20 reviews, otherwise there's too much random fluctuation, and if it has 20 reviews then enough of the 20 should be high-quality enough to justify a standalone article. If you see a "Reception" that just cites RT and/or Metacritic then replace them with the set of reviews cited that are reliable/good for Wikipedia's purpose. If there are then not enough for notability then it's time for WP:BEFORE and if that fails then AfD or redirect (and for consistency it's best to look at all episode articles for that show/season as well if you can). — Bilorv (talk) 12:22, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
My problem with using RT/Metacritic as a metric is that lots of non-American shows are not included, or get much less coverage. I think saying that only RT/Metacritic is not a suitable reception section is fine, but we shouldn't say an episode needs X amount on either, because some will never reach that no matter their notability. Kingsif (talk) 12:55, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps you've misunderstood. I don't support any requirement that RT or Metacritic pages even exist for an episode to be notable. My comment above is intended to imply that RT/Metacritic are unrelated to notability—it is only the reviews that they list that could be useful in assessing this. — Bilorv (talk) 13:47, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
@Bilorv: Good idea. Should that be at the MOS? (MOS:TVRECEPTION) Kingsif (talk) 14:16, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Be explicit that if WP:GNG or any other applicable notability criteria is met, it is considered notable even if it fails this criteria due to things like missing production information or missing audience information from its initial airing. This can easily happen if old, previously obscure/forgotten episodes are "re-discovered" and heavily commented on by journalists. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 15:33, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Started a line at 1.3 to this effect Kingsif (talk) 16:07, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Be explicit that Wikipedia is not obligated to have an article about a TV episode that meets this or any other notability criteria IF there is an existing consensus against it or if the standard practice for that particular TV show is to not have stand-alone episode articles (see also: WP:SPLIT).
Is that really a notability issue? Or just a "don't make an article that we've agreed not to make" issue? Kingsif (talk) 16:07, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
It's the latter but I've seen enough arguments over things like this over the years that it's worth putting in any special notability guideline, even if it's just in an appendix-type section that doesn't carry the "weight" of a policy or guideline near the bottom. The controlling guidelines/policies are probably those that address WP:CONSENSUS and other behavioral guidelines, along with a dash of WP:BOLD and WP:BRD for cases where there is no firm consensus against per-episode articles but some indication of a standard practice of not having them for this series/season despite notable examples being available. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 17:50, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


@Kingsif: Do you want to synthesis what was discussed here an add it into the working draft of the guideline? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:41, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

I could try. Kingsif (talk) 00:10, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Television stations task force § Project scope question[edit]

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Television stations task force § Project scope question. Sammi Brie (she/her • tc) 03:19, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

List of media portrayals of bisexuality AfD[edit]

An AfD for List of media portrayals of bisexuality is located at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of media portrayals of bisexuality and may be of interest to the members of this WikiProject. Crossroads -talk- 17:14, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

I already posted about this on the LGBT project too, but I don't think anyone has joined through there yet. --Historyday01 (talk) 17:19, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Regional sports networks[edit]

I was looking at Template:U.S. regional sports networks and am wondering why the following college sports conference networks are not included in the template: ACC Network, Big Ten Network, MountainWest Sports Network, Pac-12 Network, & SEC Network as well as the Longhorn Network.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:48, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

  • MountainWest is defunct, but otherwise, I can't see why not. Ravenswing 16:06, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
    • @Ravenswing:, Do you know how to properly include them?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:03, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
      • Just edit the template, I fancy? If there's some criterion -- tacit or otherwise -- for inclusion, I'm ignorant of it, and it's sure not like you're a rookie editor! Ravenswing 01:08, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Most of these are actually not "regional" as they are carried nationally, and some of them are technically ESPN owned channels. Spanneraol (talk) 01:27, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
  • @TonyTheTiger: I can do it. Just tell me what to put and where. –Fredddie 02:40, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
    • @Fredddie and Spanneraol: the where is why I asked @Ravenswing:. There are a bunch of sections to the template and I am not sure if these belong in any of those or a new one.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:45, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
    • P.S. national is a bit of a misnomer. Some of these channels are only a part of basic cable service regionally although they are available in premium packages in other areas. This is the case here in Chicago with my Comcast/Xfinity service. My basic package only gets BTN and none of the others although they are mostly available with premium packages.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:48, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
      • I feel like a collegiate row is in order. BYU,, and Longhorn would all move to that row unless we limit it to conference channels. –Fredddie 13:33, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
    • It may be that "regional" is a misnomer now, especially with packages and plans where people anywhere get to pickup channels from anywhere. Ravenswing 13:52, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
Yea, it's just the ones in the template currently are networks specifically marketed for specific regions like the Fox Sports channels or dedicated to one particular school.. while the ACC and SEC Networks for instance are ESPN branded channels that are available pretty much everywhere... I have them on my basic package in Los Angeles.. while the Pac-12 Network has several regional offshoots Pac-12-Arizona, Pac-12-Los Angeles etc.. the main one and the LA one are in the basic package here while the other ones are in the premium package. It does get confusing, but I don't think many of them are really RSNs... perhaps the template should be rebranded if these are included? Spanneraol (talk) 23:25, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Proposed merger of Web television into Streaming television page[edit]

A proposed merger of the Web television page into the Streaming television page is located at Talk:Web television#Merger proposal and may be of interest to the members of this WikiProject. --Historyday01 (talk) 14:41, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

"Storyboard" parameters[edit]

On episode lists, has there ever been consensus on when storyboard artists are worth listing in episode tables? I wasn't able to find one. This was spurred by The Simpsons (season 1), where they're currently being awkwardly stuffed into the "written by" column, even though storyboarding has nothing to do with writing on The Simpsons. (Of course, it isn't like that for every animated show, which is why I went looking, but came up empty-handed.) Nohomersryan (talk) 04:42, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Usually, it is an optional parameter. If it is added on the Episode table, it should be on a separate column. For an example: List of Spirit Riding Free episodes. — YoungForever(talk) 05:02, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
This is an animation series article thing, and I am generally against even doing it, as it "over-stuffs" episodes tables with too many columns. But, as YoungForever says – if you're going to do it at all (which, again, I'm not generally in favor of), it should be a separate (Aux3?) column. --IJBall (contribstalk) 05:26, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
Sure, when you put cinematographers in on episode tables. Otherwise, nope. Ravenswing 09:05, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Alright, that seems like decent enough consensus that they shouldn't be there in this case. Took 'em out. Nohomersryan (talk) 17:54, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Proposed merger of LGBT themes in anime and manga and History of LGBT anime pages[edit]

A proposed merger of the LGBT themes in anime and manga and History of LGBT anime pages is located at Talk:LGBT themes in anime and manga#Merger proposal and may be of interest to the members of this WikiProject. Historyday01 (talk) 18:24, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Special guest star[edit]

If an actor is credited as a special guest star on the on-screen credits, is in appropriate to list the actor under "Special guest star" subsection of the "Cast and characters" section? Keep in mind that the actor is not credited with the regular guest starring/recurring cast. An editor claimed it is not appropriate and should just be labeled as "Guest star" or "Guest role" as a subsection of the "Cast and characters" section. — YoungForever(talk) 23:18, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

We've had this argument here before too. Some claim that it's "trivia" and shouldn't be listed in our TV articles. A lot of us feel it's directly from a TV show's credits so it's very relevant. I am clearly in the latter camp – I can't think of any reason why the distinction between "guest star" and "special guest star" isn't directly relevant. I suppose it could be local consensus at some articles that it isn't "relevant", or "trivia" not to be included. But for many series, I think the distinction clearly is "relevant" – Legacies being a good example, as "Special guest star" crediting seems to be reserved for those who appeared in either The Vampire Diaries or The Originals first. --IJBall (contribstalk) 23:46, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
The regular guest stars (not recurring) list is usually really long for many television series. Television series creators and executive producers keep starring, guest starring/recurring, and special guest stars listing of their credits separate for a reason. — YoungForever(talk) 00:11, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Exactly why for anyone who's not recurring and is listed under a general guest stars or notable guest stars section, we should only list those who are notable. For example, if Cast A was main cast in Series A and guest stars in Series B as a guest star, that makes them notable. But for those who aren't recurring, we shouldn't be listing everyone under the sun in order to avoid WP:INDISCRIMINATE and WP:FANCRUFT. It should be reserved for those are truly notable, for the reason I gave in my example above and a couple other reasons, such as a famous musician. Amaury • 00:16, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
When a subsection is listed as "Guest starring", some editors a lot more than you think tend to just add anyone who isn't recurring to the "Guest starring" list. — YoungForever(talk) 00:37, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Exactly my point. Sections for actors who neither fit under main nor recurring should be clearly labeled as "notable guest stars" or some form of to at least alleviate the issue, and we can then deal with it more efficiently when editors are inclined to add everyone under the sun and point them to the name of the section. Simply "guest stars" opens the door to WP:FANCRUFT. If people want to list every single guest star, they can go to the Wikias. Amaury • 19:40, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
It really happens a lot more than you think with "Guest starring/Guest stars" as a subsection. — YoungForever(talk) 04:46, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
The answer's in the title: "special guest star". They're a guest, that happens to be "special". -- /Alex/21 23:54, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
A special appearance by, is a special guest, is a special guest star, is a guest. Anything that isn't a main casting is a guest. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:06, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Generally, dividing the cast list into regulars, recurring guests, and other noteworthy guests is good enough for most articles. There shouldn't be any need to have another section for "special" guest stars. - adamstom97 (talk) 01:52, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
There's always odd cases in the television industry too. In the third season of Hawaii Five-0 Christine Lahti appeared in eight episodes of the season (easily passes the recurring threshold) but is credited as a "special guest star" in every episode that she appeared in. Just because of that I wouldn't move her to a "special guest" section even if the consensus here was that we should use them. So just as others have said a special guest star is still a guest star and could also be recurring cast depending on how many other episodes they appear in any respective season. They should just be listed in an already existing notable guest or recurring section, whichever is appropriate. TheDoctorWho (talk) 02:19, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
The problem with just "Guest starring" (not recurring) subsection is that a lot of editors will add anyone who isn't recurring to the "Guest starring" list.YoungForever(talk) 02:28, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
There should be set criteria for inclusion in the guest list to avoid that, which can be determined by local consensus depending on the series. - adamstom97 (talk) 02:42, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the editor decided to edit war instead of participating in the discussion that I started on talk even when it is WP:STATUSQUO. — YoungForever(talk) 16:02, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
I've reverted as ignoring the Talk page discussion is clearly edit warring. --IJBall (contribstalk) 16:09, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Merging Critics' Choice TV Awards with respective year's film awards[edit]

A user at Talk:26th Critics' Choice Awards recently proposed a merger for the 11th Critics' Choice Television Awards into the 26th Critics' Choice Awards, pointing out that the two events are really the same ceremony. It seems that in the past, the ceremonies were separate, but this is no longer the case. I would appreciate it if more people could take a look at the issue on the talk page, since a merger would set a standard not just for this year's ceremony, but for past ceremonies as well, and given that the events started separate and merged later, it is unclear how they should be kept now. RunningTiger123 (talk) 06:01, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Firefly Lane § Special guest star vs. guest star[edit]

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Firefly Lane § Special guest star vs. guest star. Editors are needed to weigh in on this. — YoungForever(talk) 14:28, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/Assessment is maxed out[edit]

Just a note that the Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/Assessment is maxed out by template limits, and is listed in Category:Pages where template include size is exceeded. Need help in archiving sections of the page, thanks! Funandtrvl (talk) 03:47, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

I split off old requests to Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/Assessment/Request archive. Did that help? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:42, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
@Favre1fan93: I ended up having to add a link to the quality log, instead of transcluding it on the page, because it's too many transclusions for WP to handle. Funandtrvl (talk) 18:28, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:List of American Idol finalists[edit]

Discussion is made at Talk:List of American Idol finalists#Insufficient amount of sources? --George Ho (talk) 21:58, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Star Wars spinoffs[edit]

Ambox warning blue.svgTemplate:Star Wars spinoffs has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. - adamstom97 (talk) 07:41, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Help with editing Adult animated television series in the United States page[edit]

Hello everyone! Back in December, I thought it was a good idea to split off a section from the Adult animation page. Then, that page seemed too wordy so I split off content related to the U.S. in a page titled Adult animation in the United States. From there, I decided to split the page yet again to the Adult animated television series in the United States. Perhaps that was too hasty, but that's a whole other discussion. Recently I was looking at the latter page and shaking my head. I'd still like to keep the page, if possible, but it's also overly wordy. That is, admittedly, my fault, and I've made it worse. Anyway, I'd like help with cutting the content down, spinning off parts of the page to appropriate pages, and so on. I would even venture that the whole page itself needs to be redone, but I'm just not sure how to proceed. So, that's why I'm posting about it here. Any suggestions and help would be appreciated. Thanks. --Historyday01 (talk) 15:36, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Red link in a (TLC "-related") template[edit]

There is a Red link in the template "{{Former TLC Programming}}".
I mentioned it (including some "ideas" for ... what to do about it) here:

Template talk:Former TLC Programming#Red link (in this template) for "The Big Garage".

Any advice? or other comments? --Mike Schwartz (talk) 07:14, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Help with Run BTS episodes[edit]

The "Episodes" section of this series was previously laid out in 20-ep batch tables (no idea why) before I recently (Jan) started converting it to what it is now (tables per season) using the NCIS page as guidance. The conversion isn't complete yet but some confusion about episode numbering is making me wonder if I just messed up the page rather than improved it. With what I've done (which was okay for S1 as E6's easily identifiable split makes it understandable), E11 of the show is listed as S2 E1 in the table and #12 overall, but with no indication of its official #11 designation anywhere. The show numbers all eps continuously and 2ndary sources refer to them per the show's titling. The 130th episode recently aired, but if the S3 table is updated it will appear as 131 'Overall', 73 'in Season', and the infobox count would say 131 instead of 130, which could potentially confuse readers. How do I handle this? Is there another column to indicate the actual episode # in the table, or another alternative? I have limited experience w articles of this nature so advice would be most appreciated! -- Carlobunnie (talk) 17:46, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

No doubt this is better than the 20-episode blocks, so thank you for your work so far. In most situations I believe that we categorise multiple-part items as separate episodes as long as they first aired non-consecutively, which looks to be always true here. The season summary and number of episodes listed in the infobox should be changed to match the final counts of the episode-by-episode tables. Unfortunately, this seems to cause confusion between the show's perception of its episode count with 50th and 100th episode specials (they count "Confession" only as one episode and all other multiple-parters as multiple episodes? Why?), so I'm a bit unsure of how to proceed. — Bilorv (talk) 18:45, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
@Bilorv: I honestly have no clue why the Confession episode remained as an outlier considering to the naming/numbering of other split part eps as you pointed out. Would adding a fn stating that only this ep was treated this way—and that other multi-part eps after it were counted as individual eps hence the reason for the discrepancy between the show's count and the actual count—be an acceptable interim measure? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 19:14, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, actually, it could be a sensible outcome to use the episode numberings that the show does with a footnote like you suggest. I suppose something weird has happened that's not our fault, so whatever solution we find will have some drawbacks. — Bilorv (talk) 22:26, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
@Bilorv: I added the fn to the infobox (please lmk if you think that's okay or if I've worded it stupidly). I'll tackle the episode numbers next, but just to be clear, you're saying it's okay for the "No. in Season" column to reflect the actual episode # as stated by the show? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
I'll try to take it from the top since my opinion has developed a bit since I first saw this question: I think there are multiple okay solutions, but we have to pick one and go with it. One solution sees the episode count that the show maintains for itself (so their 50th special is episode 50), with a footnote explaining that "Confessions" is counted as one where other multi-part specials are not. Another solution sees the episode count that arises if we treat "Confessions" as two separate episodes, with a footnote explaining why the 50th special isn't the 50th and the same for the 100th. You need to choose one of these for the "No. overall"/"No. in season" counts, and probably it's better to choose the same one for the total episode tally in the infobox. (But you can't use one count for one numbering and one for the other: it needs to just go with one system.)
After lots of internal questioning I think either of these are fine for you to choose, so long as there is a footnote link in the infobox tally and at the occurrence of the numbering of "Confessions" (and the occurrence of the 50th/100th if you choose the option where those are counted as 51/101). Sorry if that's a bit of a non-answer and also if I've caused more confusion along the way! I guess the main thing I have to say is that when these ambiguities happen, the best thing is just to clearly signpost in the article itself that they have happened (with the footnote) so readers will understand both ways of looking at it. — Bilorv (talk) 22:12, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
@Bilorv: I am still confused but I made this test edit to see if that's what you possibly meant. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 23:50, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
That's okay, and sorry that this is so confusing. This is not what I meant: you should pick either the numbering you've just used in "No. overall" and "No. in season", and use it in the column "No. overall". Whichever numbering you prefer. The numbering in "No. in season" must start at 1 each season and increase in lockstep with the "No. overall" column i.e. they either both increase by 1 at the next entry, or possibly both stay the same in the case of "Confessions" (so that for the first season the two columns will be identical from start to finish). — Bilorv (talk) 00:26, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
@Bilorv: oh ok, I think I partially understand? I undid the above edit and tried again (S2 table only, up to E17). Also tweaked the episode titles to reflect how they're named in the show. Please lmk if I'm on the right track or not (I think I did it partly wrong cuz the Magnum PI article's overall col numbering continues but in season restarts each season so I just fkd the overall col). I might just quit since I'm too dumb to get it 😩🤡 and I feel bad for giving you so much headache over something so simple. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 03:07, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
@Bilorv: ok so after calming down (when I make mistakes it makes me panicky so I apologize if I sounded like I was actually going to quit the page—I was just joking), I fixed my flub up with the numbering and linked the fn to the applicable episodes. When you can, lmk if it's good now. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 20:16, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

I've made a couple of edits and this, barring any accidental mistakes, is a good system I think. Any confusion in our conversation is as much my responsibility as yours—I'm writing for an audience, after all, and this is very complicated to discuss without visually seeing it (next time I think I should probably demonstrate instead of describe). Feel free to ask if you're still confused. Don't worry about taking up my time—I'd simply leave the conversation if I felt it wasn't worth me spending time on this—and there's no rush so you can always leave it for a while and come back when more relaxed, if you feel anxiety at first. :) — Bilorv (talk) 01:55, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Shōgun (upcoming miniseries)[edit]

It appears this series is in development hell, having been scheduled to begin shooting some time ago but run into trouble, but someone inappropriately placed an article on it in the mainspace. I personally think that long-planned and/or cancelled shows and movies, if the sources are there, are more meriting of standalone articles than released shows and movies that there's nothing encyclopedic to write about, but this doesn't appear to be either, and even if it were the former I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority. I considered redirecting it, but can't think of a good target: what do folks here think should be done about it? Hijiri 88 (やや) 11:26, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

WP:TV follows WP:NFF guidance on this – if filming on the TV series has not begun, the article doesn't meet WP:TVSHOW, and should be moved to Draftspace. --IJBall (contribstalk) 13:31, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
Agreed. Draftify the article, and redirect to Shōgun (novel)#Adaptations. -- /Alex/21 13:34, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

TV6 (Malaysia)[edit]

TV6 (Malaysia) is a TV channel launching next week. The articl about it has been the subject of a discussion at WP:ANI#TV6 (Malaysia). Main problem is that notability is not established as the article is unreferenced. Any members of this WP willing to try to save it from deletion? Mjroots (talk) 17:17, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Do articles listing television episodes need to have their own notability established?[edit]

I assume that if a television show is notable, then you can have spinout articles for each season. Someone has nominated some articles for deletion and argued they need to establish notability on their own. How are television shows normally done? Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nostalgia Critic (season 13) Dream Focus 18:18, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Dream Focus MOS:TVSPLIT and Wikipedia:Article splitting (television) will assist you here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:48, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
The is a general consensus that a season article with just Episode and Ratings tables are not enough to warrant a season article. A season article should also contain a Production and Critical response sections (not copied and pasted from the main TV series article). The season article needs to be able to be standalone. — YoungForever(talk) 19:21, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, uh, no – List of episode articles probably don't need to be "independently notable" (they just need to meet the list criteria), but season articles definitely need to be independently notable, using pretty much the same criteria as TV show articles themselves. --IJBall (contribstalk) 19:35, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Definitely for web series, there has to be a sign that the "season" is notable, since these are fundamentally arbitrary compared to broadcast/cable/streaming services. I would not rule out that a list of episodes for a notable web series like Nost. Critic as inappropriate -- but as most of his episodes can be summarized by saying "The Critic revies (film)" where "Film" is the same as the episode name, you don't need the short summaries. Yes, this will be a long list, and per SIZE may need to be split over two or three lists, but that should only be due to size, not due to season notability. --Masem (t) 14:57, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
Has this ever been done? I don't think I've ever seen "List of SpongeBob SquarePants episodes (seasons 1–4)" or similar and it seems far more intuitive to create the content forks based on season, which is why people constantly do it. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:48, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
Both Doctor Who and The Simpsons have such lists (eg List of Doctor Who episodes (1963–1989) and List of Doctor Who episodes (2005–present), and List of The Simpsons episodes (seasons 1–20) and List of The Simpsons episodes for example.) Doctor Who splits on a natural aspect (the hiatus), whereas the Simpsons split is based on what seems to be the best even distribution while meeting SIZE. But again, both shows also have individual series/season pages that are very notable. I'm not seeing a problem if this had to be done with the NC episodes if there was more summary text added to a handful of episodes. --Masem (t) 04:38, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Orby TV is out of business...[edit]

A year back its channel positions were added, but now that they're gone, keep a lookout on network articles, because their positions now need removal. Nate (chatter) 03:05, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

I just went through and removed, what, 40 to 50 of them... Sammi Brie (she/her • tc) 04:56, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Great job! I think I got the last two strays on Orby's WLH page, so this should be cleared up. Thank you! Nate (chatter) 23:55, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Series overview[edit]

Would simplying a series overview's layout to look like the table at The Twilight Zone (2019 TV series)#Episodes be a poor decision or an acceptable one? -- /Alex/21 04:31, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Poor – in a case like this where there's effectively a "premiere date" for a season, and a "final[e] date", the more "traditional" episodes table format, like at The Boys (2019 TV series)#Episodes, is preferable. --IJBall (contribstalk) 05:14, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
And yet, I'd say that it conforms with MOS:DATERANGE, as well how we already present dates in a television infobox (parent and/or season, instead of separating them into separate rows), and cutting down on unnecessary headers/space. -- /Alex/21 05:16, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
Then don't use a table. Tables are designed to present certain information in a better, more understandable/way. If you're going to use a table, The Boys format-style is preferable. Otherwise, just do it in prose. (Which gets to the larger general point that a lot of editors are insisting upon using tables in many circumstances when use of a table is actually not the best choice.) --IJBall (contribstalk) 05:33, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
You're correct about how tables are designed in regards to presentation, that's why we use them for series overviews that include episode counts, dates, average viewers, networks, etc. The formatting of the date range wouldn't change this, I'm confused as to how it would affect these other columns? A great example of a consensus-agreed usage is at The Great British Bake Off. If dates should be separated in table usages, is there a reason why infoboxes (which are also tables) list dates as "Original release July 26, 2019 – present" as opposed to "First released July 26, 2019" / "Last released present"? -- /Alex/21 13:01, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
IJBall gets it when they say Then don't use a table.. MOS:TABLE says Prose is preferred in articles as prose allows the presentation of detail and clarification of context, in a way that a table may not. ... In an article, significant items should normally be mentioned naturally within the text rather than merely tabulated. The tables in two of the articles cited are so basic that they can be converted to a few sentences of prose (or a single sentence if the redundantly duplicative dates are removed). Tables have another negative; they're usually harder for mobile users - i.e. the majority of the audience - to read than prose (and on Wikipedia, often comically so). Also, Alex 21 may wish to fix their The Twilight Zone link, as the acceptable (or poor) format change has been reverted. (talk) 18:44, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
Thank you, random IP. -- /Alex/21 01:38, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Not directly related, but my only comment would be that it seems to be redundant to have both an "originally aired" cell and then "first aired" and "last aired" cells below that. Seems it would work/look better without the "originally aired" cell. Unless there's a reason it's that way that I'm not seeing. Amaury • 09:30, 7 March 2021 (UTC)